Ranking Revolution

Welcome to the ranking revolution
podcast, your go-to source for

strategies and ideas for SEO, organic
growth, content creation and business.

I'm your host, Doug Cuttington.

And this interview, I talked to Rachel
Hernandez of the Hoth and we talk about

two main sort of different topics.

One.

Is SEO.

And SGE AI.

We're talking about Google, trying
to deal with AI and the reality

that we're dealing with with all
the churn and the SEO industry.

Over the past year or so dealing with AI.

The second part is.

All about.

Reselling services and white labeling
the Hoth has been a white label service

for many years since the very beginning.

And Rachel and I talk about that and
we get into the details of how, uh, a

small agency or a solo entrepreneur,
or just a company that is growing fast.

Can use.

the Hoff as an outsourcing solution.

So we talk about white labeling
what it means and some of the best

practices around white labeling.

I do want to tell you
I am testing something.

So I'm launching this new
podcast, rinky revolution.

And I, I want shorter episodes.

So I'm dividing these longer
conversations, which typically run about

an hour into two separate topic areas.

Thus, we end up with part one and
part two, which I am releasing.

At the same time and you
can listen to both parts.

If one interests you more than the other,
you can listen to one, skip the other.

And the smart people out
there, which you're listening.

So.

I'm going to call you smart.

There's a potentially.

Some information I can gather from this.

So if I get more downloads, On
apple or I get more downloads

and listens over on Spotify.

Maybe that helps.

And that's something that I could
share with you later, but in this case,

You could just imagine it as a, uh,
a longer episode of your favorite TV

show, this divided into two episodes.

And if you want to listen to
them, both, that is fantastic.

So I'm going to send it to
the interview right now.

Doug: Today I'm chatting with
Rachel Hernandez of the Hoth.

She's the director of marketing and the
Hoth is an SEO and digital marketing

company that works with businesses of all
sizes, and they also offer white label

services for content, link building,
managed services, and a whole lot more.

She successfully grew in
the content department.

And I think this was a little while
back, um, from just a handful of

freelancers to over 700 dedicated
writers, copy editors, and researchers.

And funny thing, I started working
with a Hoth like almost immediately.

When I was blogging in 2013 and have
had a loose connection for years.

So today we're going to talk about AI.

We're going to talk about
search generative experience

over at Google in a couple.

Well, whatever we can
dig into for AI and SEO.

And just just to lay the foundation,
we're recording in March of 2024.

So the, uh, very major core update is
rolling out and things are in the air.

So, uh, Rachel and I are, uh, just
watching like everyone else at this point.

The other topic we're gonna
cover is white label specifics.

So a lot of.

Smaller companies or solo operators
are working as many hours as they can.

And I think this is a topic that people
don't talk about very often, just

using other services and companies
as a, you know, white label solution.

So we're going to dig into
some details about scaling.

So Rachel, I'm excited
to chat with you today.

How's it going?

Oh

Rachel: my gosh, it's going great.

Thank you so much for having me.

Um, it's really cool to hear too,
that you're working with the Hoth,

um, back in 2013, we've been around
for a while and it's just, I know

it's always nice to connect with
somebody who was there, um, when we

were just kind of rolling things out.

Doug: Yeah.

And before we dig into all the details,
like you've been there for several

years, so can you talk about, yeah, yeah.

What was it like in those early days?

I'm sure it was a little

Rachel: scrappy.

Oh, my gosh.

Um, so it was scrappy,
scrappy in the best way.

Um, when I joined the team, uh, we
had about, I think like five of us.

in house.

We used to say we were keeping it
lean and mean, um, and like super

well, like documented processes
and operations just to make sure

everything was running smoothly.

But since I've been
there, um, we have grown.

To I think we have, I want to
say we're like, like 75 team

members, many of them at HQ in St.

Petersburg.

We have an entire floor of a gorgeous
building that overlooks the bay.

Um, and so yeah, like
to get to be a part of.

That growth and, um, really be with a
company that has like grown that much.

But also, I mean, I've
been there for eight years.

A lot of my team members have been
there for seven years, six years.

That's not something you
necessarily see a lot these days.

So I think it speaks really
well to the culture, the

operations, the product itself.

No one's going to stick around if
they're not proud of what they're doing.

So, yeah, it's been really cool.

Doug: And I know.

You guys have won some awards, just like
a, uh, I don't know what they're called,

like great employer in X city, right?

A lot of cities have this, but I
think, you know, that's kind of rare.

I've actually never worked at a place
that, um, had a good, uh, culture or a

great morale where they would win awards.

I was always like in some toxic culture
or something like that, but yeah.

Can you talk a little bit about the,
the culture there and, you know,

why people are happy to work at the

Rachel: off?

Oh my gosh, yeah, I mean it absolutely
starts from the top and I certainly have

worked in some extremely toxic, um, work
environments, the Hoff obviously not

being one of them, uh, and it goes to, I
believe, like, uh, Mark Hargrove is our

CEO and, um, he's the CEO that shows up
every day, he is there, In office, 9 to

5, open door, it doesn't matter if you
are a, uh, fellow executive, if you are,

um, starting off as a coordinator, you
can go in and shoot ideas off of him and,

and he'll treat you, he'll, he'll respect
whatever you have to say and he'll listen.

We also have a really strong,
um, what we call our culture doc.

So, um, it basically just outlines like
all the philosophies of how we treat

each other, how we treat our work.

And a lot of it comes down to just like.

Taking responsibility, owning what you
do, but also, like, being aware that this

is Martech, this is marketing, you know?

We take our job seriously, we work really
hard, but this is nothing to, like, go

home and cry about at the end of the day.

Like, we are all one team, we're all
working together, and, and they respect

that, like, we have lives, and, um, like,
feelings that go beyond, uh, SEO, I guess.

Doug: So let's get into SEO.

So part, part one here, we're going
to talk about AI, SGE, and really just

trying to figure out how to navigate.

So as I mentioned before, we are literally
in the middle of a big core update.

And this seems like one of the, the
bigger ones that has rolled out.

Uh, multiple systems are being updated.

So I know that I was experimenting
with SGE and I, I didn't love it.

And it's hard to tell like
where Google is going.

I mean, just with algorithm updates,
it's been difficult in the last couple

of years, but can you talk a little
bit about the role SGE will play in

SEO and what we need to be aware of?

I'm sure it'll be fluid, but where
do you see it from where you sit?

Rachel: Yeah.

I mean, I don't think like
everybody is sort of in a panic.

About SGE and we're hearing reports that
some websites are going to lose like 25

percent of their organic traffic and But
I agree with what you said just a few

minutes ago is I don't know if google
necessarily knows where they're going

With it either or with ai in general.

Um, what I will say is Every time
there's like a change like this or a

big core algorithm update, um, like
this one where we're seeing now It

always is cause for people to, and
I'm not putting this out, like start

taking a look at your processes, start
taking a look at what you're doing.

But this has always been an industry
that's been constantly evolving.

And if you came into SEO and you were
thinking all I need to do is like build

some backlinks and add some content
to my website and I'm going to own

the SERPs, like this might not be the
industry for you because even in the

past, like Even if you look at a Google
results page, uh, from like five years

ago, it looks so different than what it
looks like today, and that's before SGE.

Um, I've been saying this lately, uh,
and I, I, one day I might come up with

a better term for it, but Google's
becoming Googlier, so you're not getting

just a list of websites, you're getting,
uh, people also ask, you are getting,

depending on your search intent, maybe
you're getting some, you know, eCommerce

results or some images, uh, now we're
seeing like forums, like what are

people saying on Reddit or on Quora?

And what we have to do as SEOs,
because we are optimizing for the

SERPs, for the Google machine or, or
whatever, is start creating content

that like meets the user wherever
they're at with that search intent.

And that's not always going to be
like a product page on your website.

So, When it comes to SGE,
I'm saying the same thing.

Um, and to me, SGE also, I have to say
is like what I would advise people to

do because we don't have any data right
now about how, how it's being optimized.

I would say I would treat it
as we treated featured snippets

and rich snippets before.

Um, I think it's going to
be a very similar process.

And with that, it's, um, optimizing
for those long tail keywords.

It's a very, very direct question
that somebody would punch into

Google, and that doesn't necessarily
lead to a click on your website.

But if you have that like long tail
keywords, that topical authority,

Google is going to see that as the
answer to the question directly.

And then that will show up in SGE.

Um, so that's kind of my advice right now.

And again, it is all very like wait
and see, but I tend to try and go

off of like what we know works and
what we know has worked before.

And for SGE specifically, I would
say, again, treat it like you would

optimize for a featured snippet.

And then, again, for everything else, you
know, if you're brick and mortar, optimize

to be in the map pack, watch your reviews,
check out your Google business profile.

Uh, if you are an e commerce site,
like, optimize your images for

your keywords so they show up when
somebody has an intent to buy.

And, um, repurpose with
video and use YouTube.

Like, there's so many other ways
for us to optimize our websites.

that go beyond that like traditional
SEO that we were doing 10 years ago.

Doug: And just to dig a little bit
deeper for the specific strategy, long

tail keywords and a direct quick answer
versus a long 500 word narrative, just

like give people the freaking answer,

Rachel: right?

Yeah, yeah, so I mean and and you don't
have to like the way I would advise doing

this is Is through content on your website
obviously quality content not AI content.

We can dig into that for a second, but
You can do a long form post but those h2s

that you put in have them be A question,
a subtextual question, a connective

question, that relate back to that
larger topic that you're writing about.

And then you write your little, short,
succinct answer, um, to whatever that

long tail keyword in the headline is,
that gets crawled, and then that shows

up as a result in the SGE and might even
still lead people back to your website.

Doug: One thing that I've said for
a couple years and luckily there's

several videos where I've talked about
this So there's documentation of it.

Basically There's two reasons that I
would do this thing so number one if

someone would ask a question they laid
out a scenario like how to get featured

snippets or SGE or whatever and if I
didn't know the answer I would usually

say Just forget about Google for a
second and think about the end user

because Google could change what they
want and they do change what they want.

So at the end of the day, if you just
like give the answer that's most helpful

and as few word as possible, that's
probably going to be the best thing.

And I think, I mean, The good part
is like you could take off your

tinfoil hat and it's just like,
give the answer to the person.

It doesn't matter the search engine.

So no question, but can you
elaborate on that if you have any

Rachel: comments?

Oh my gosh.

Yeah.

I mean, um, agreed a hundred percent.

And I think that's such an important point
to make because we can, especially as SEOs

get so caught up in what Google is doing.

Um, Um, but at the end of
the day, it's all the same.

If you are consistently putting the
work in to make your website more

user friendly, to give relevant
answers to people's questions, to

follow your customers or your users
line of thinking so that you meet

them wherever they are, You're at.

Um, I like did a, it was a long time
ago post on LinkedIn that like took off.

And all I said was real SEOs don't
worry about algorithm updates.

Um, and I think that's absolutely true
because real SEOs, we're actually doing

the work on the website to make sure
that it's not optimized necessarily for

Google, but it's optimized for the user,
which if Google is doing their job and,

um, I think they are because they got a
lot of really smart people working there.

Um, you're, you're still doing
what Google wants and you never

have to worry about anything

Doug: and it holds true for any kind of
content that you're creating as well.

The best practices will change
on LinkedIn or tick tock or reels

or whatever, or YouTube video.

But at the end of the day,
like you could just use the.

That is your North Star and usually
it points you in the right direction

because you're ignoring like any
flash in the pan of algorithm

updates, no matter the platform.

Rachel: Yeah, and imagine like the
energy spent worrying about how to react

to an algorithm update or whatever.

Imagine taking that energy and
actually putting it into making

your website better for the people
who you're actually selling to.

Doug: So a little bit of tangent here,
but the other part, so I'm, I'm more

of a content creator now than an SEO
is always more of a dabbler, but now

I've, I'm clearly moving in the opposite
direction, but as a content creator,

I am trying to create new things.

So my content is usually not
derivative of anyone else.

However, when we look at the SERPs I
mean, really the best practices for years.

This was, okay, see what's
out there and then copy that.

Do a little bit better.

And it worked for a long time, you
know, skyscraper technique, back

Lincoln, Brian Dean, great strategy.

I mean, it was, uh, it's how you write
research papers and stuff, right?

So there's, there's nothing
wrong with it, but inherently

it's derivative on other stuff.

Can you talk a little bit?

about like new, fresh, original
content, new ideas, new combinations

of ideas versus like just
regurgitating the same old stuff.

Rachel: Yeah.

And I think that people get confused
when they hear quality content

and I'm a content person too.

Like I came into SEO
because I was a writer.

Um, and that just sort of was the
natural progression for me personally.

Um, yes.

And that also plays into AI.

If you don't mind, if we kind of start
diving into that, because, um, the thing

with AI and I was comparing it to somebody
doing a Google search, kind of taking,

okay, these are the top three results.

This is Google wants it to be this long.

They want it to touch these things, these
headers, and there are still plenty of

tools that do really well with that.

Um, AI essentially does.

That right AI content, um is all generated
from what's already there and there

is no Particular like point of view
or next step associated with it Which

is why I think we're going to start
to see it devalued more and more even

if google can't necessarily tell its
ai it can Tell that there is nothing

new or original That provides value.

Um, so I would say like I love AI as
a writing tool Um, but I use it as

sort of like a baseline Brainstorm
what I would do before when I would go

through and do a google search and say,
okay I'm writing a piece about this.

So i'm gonna take some ideas from here
I'm gonna take some ideas from there

and that's going to be my jumping
off point But at the end of the day,

I always put my own spin, my own
interpretation, my own conclusions on

top of the research that I've made.

And any good, again, like that is
how you write a research paper,

right, but any good research paper
has, you know, like some sort of

point they're driving towards that is
something somebody hasn't said before.

AI content doesn't allow
us to do that by itself.

But what I do like about these tools is
that it makes it easier for us to get to

the point where we have more room to have
those big ideas and those great ideas.

I know if I'm not wasting time kind
of like, proverbially like pounding

my head against a blank piece of
paper and I have a starting off point.

I have so much more room to get
imaginative, to get creative, to

really humanize my content more,
and to take it to that next level.

Um, so where I think AI is like very
dangerous in some ways, and can be very

dangerous to websites who are trying to
take shortcuts, just as it was before,

it also offers us the opportunity and
space to really ideate on a higher level.

Um, and that to me as a content
creator is super exciting.

I think I answered your question.

I've been thinking about this a lot.

Doug: That's great.

Well, in a couple things, you did.

I don't even know if I had a question,
but it was a perfect segue to AI.

So, There was a period, I think, for
about a year that's ending right now.

So it was very hot and interesting
for people to bulk publish AI content.

And there's been a ton of sites that have
been de indexed like in the last week.

And it's been.

I mean, I think everyone knew it was
going to be short lived, but I don't

think anyone thought it was going to
be a bunch of de indexings, manual

actions, and that sort of thing.

What have you seen, because you
probably have visibility into a

lot of, a lot of sites and a lot
of clients and stuff like that.

So can you talk about sort
of the landscape right now?

Again, this is a timely little thing,
but it's interesting and I want

to, I want to hear what you know.

Rachel: Yeah, I mean, um, so obviously,
like, once this rollout was announced,

um, our team has been working, like,
just, like, we have tons of people just

monitoring what's, what's going on.

Uh, and we're lucky in the sense, like,
we always, we've never had AI content.

I don't put it on our own site.

We mentioned at the beginning of this
talk, like, all of our writers who

create the content for our, our blogs,
and if you, um, if you're interested in

like, We're doing link outreach for you.

They're all human writers.

Um, so we've never had
to worry about that.

Um, personally, but yes, what we
are seeing and To be very clear,

the manual penalties, which
are, that's, this is pretty new.

Like it's not new, but Google kind of
took a break from them where you wouldn't

get like a D index or a manual penalty
to your site, unless it's something was

very egregious, it just wouldn't count.

Like, so it would be a waste
of resources, but you wouldn't

necessarily lose your whole website.

Um, now what we're seeing and not like
with our own client base, but just,

you I'm on, you know, SEO Twitter
or X or whatever, SEO Reddit, like

in Facebook groups, is one people
who have been using that AI content.

are getting de indexed.

Um, it doesn't necessarily mean
that Google can recognize when

content has some sort of AI.

It probably just means that content came
onto your website hard and fast and it's

not very good and it's not very relevant.

Um, so we are seeing
manual penalties there.

And two, um, there have been, and this
is something that's new, um, domains

that have been purchased because they
had a high, uh, domain authority or

domain rating or, you know, whichever
term you want to call it, um, and

then were repurposed simply for,
like, guest posts or to sell links.

Those sites are also
being de indexed as well.

Um, and that is new, um, and
that to me is actually kind

of, I'm of two minds about it.

I think obviously if you're purchasing
a website with a high DA just to sell

backlinks, like that's not necessarily,
that's pretty black hat, um, SEO.

I do think though, um, if you purchased
a website and you're repurposing it

for your own purposes and it's not
just to manipulate Google, um, you

shouldn't get de indexed because
you bought a website like that.

That's normal.

Yeah, it's pretty normal.

Um, but we are seeing that as well.

So at this point, I think with
Google for the first time in a while,

they still have the market share.

Right, they still have like 90 percent
of the search market share, but this

is the first time where we've seen
like being kind of get talked about

where tick tock is a search engine is
is coming up where people are going

to different places to do search.

It's time for them to crack
down, honestly, because.

In order for them to maintain that
market share in a time where things

are becoming more and more competitive,
and it is easier for people to

create content than ever before.

Um, they need to make sure
that their results are quality.

And going back to what we were
saying before, our jobs as SEOs is

not to manipulate Google rankings.

It's to provide a great user
experience that, you know, Google

will, um, reward with, um, you
know, great standings in the SERPs.

Doug: I was surprised that it took
so long for Google to crack down on

the, you know, link farm situation.

Because, I mean, some of them
were so clear where, I mean, you

could just see the same links
in various different articles.

And if you just, you know, me as
an unqualified person, I could

just like find these very easily.

Um, and there were so many of
them, you know, huge industry

of reselling and reselling.

It's kind of crazy.

Rachel: I mean, we have like, cause
we, we do, um, build backlinks

as part of our, our company.

And, um, I used to be, um, I was the
director of content services at the

Hoth when I was doing the product stuff.

And so I was in charge of, of
our backlink products and we

had like such, um, stringent.

Qualifications for, um, somebody
to like for us to publish like a

guest post or do a link insertion
or a niche edit on somebody's site.

It is something like once you
know you can spot it a mile away.

Like, they all look the same.

They've all got the same header.

They all have like a section
that's like entertainment,

sports, politics, like world news.

You're like, what is this
website actually about?

Um, you know, and every, every, um,
you know, post has a link to, you know,

Ryan's automotive service or whatever.

Um, and I feel like AI
content though is the same.

Anybody who's like on, um, I
mean, I'm on LinkedIn a lot.

Um, so I see it there a lot of the time,
um, or if you see the paid ad, like

it's getting so obvious, it loves, it
loves an emoji, um, if you're writing

ad copy or social media copy, let me
tell you, uh, I made this comparison the

other day, and I don't mean to offend
anybody, but, um, back like in the mid

October When, you know, like all those
MLMs were taking off and like every of

their posts like looked exactly the same
or their outreach messages, um, that's

how AI content when it doesn't have
that like human element feels to me.

And if I can spot it, I'm sure there
are those figures that Google can

spot as well, even though, again,
I don't know if they'll ever be

able to, like, a hundred percent.

Really tell if something's AI.

Um, but man, there are some indicators
that I think anyone could recognize

Doug: One one interesting thing and
then we'll move on to the white label

stuff here But there were all these
manual actions and it's been years

again, like you said unless you were
doing some very uh, just intense Link

building activity or something like
that like something very obvious Um,

you wouldn't get a manual penalty.

I feel like it was like 2014 or 2015
with like pbms and stuff I got caught

up in that mess back in those days
but It sort of indicates that Google

can't algorithmically detect these
reliably, in my opinion, otherwise,

why would they do this manually?

Right.

So do you have any comments on that?

Rachel: Yeah.

I mean, I think when Panda came out,
um, in, I forget what year I should know

this 2012 or something, 2013, 2012, a
lot of, a lot of, a lot of good sites

were hit, basically, there was like a
lot of collateral damage, um, that came

with that first, like big link spam.

And that's personally why I think they
rolled it back so that you wouldn't

necessarily get a manual penalty.

Um, but now, I mean, it's been
10 years, like the algorithm has

become more advanced, uh, and
they do have, um, more resources.

And I will say the sites that have been
de indexed that I've seen, Um, I don't

know if I've, I personally haven't seen
that much collateral damage yet and

we'll see that how that goes and maybe
they will start de indexing sites that

didn't necessarily deserve it and they'll
roll that back again, but like we said,

you know, we're in the middle of this.

It's been live for eight days and um,
because there are so many elements to

this rollout, I don't expect us to see.

How things really shake out until probably
like the first week of April, if that.

Um, so if you are, I don't know when
this is published, but like, if you are

seeing some validity or volatility, excuse
me, um, with your rankings, it's not

necessarily mean like means that this is.

Long term for you.

This happens when there's a big rollout,
things can go up and down and you're

really not going to see the true impact.

Um, I would say for about
a month after the rollout.

Doug: Yeah.

It's always stressful waiting through it.

So yeah, you just have to wait it out.

Okay.

So before we move on, is there
anything else with SGE or AI or

anything else to, to wrap it up?

Rachel: Yeah.

I mean, again, like we're in the middle.

I have been, you know, I, I do, um, some
speaking at conferences and you have to

submit your topic ahead of time and you
have to submit your slides ahead of time.

Um, and man, these past few years, I am
updating those slides like on the plane.

Cause I'm like, something
happened yesterday.

Everybody's talking about this thing.

Um, and so, um, you know, I would
just say like, keep your ear to

the ground, keep watching things
like this, um, don't panic.

Like this has always been happening.

It just happens to be going on at a faster
pace because we have more technology now.

Um, but the main tenants of SEO,
regardless of an update, regardless

of AI, they always remain the same.

And I think we touched on those.

That wraps up part one with Rachel
from the Hoth we'll put links

to her socials and the Hoth.

And anything else that you
might want to get to related to

this episode in the show notes?

So do check it out.

If you want to check out part two,
I would greatly appreciate it.

That's where we talk about white
labeling and being a reseller.

So really interesting stuff, especially
if you need help outsourcing a company.

Like the Hoth might be a perfect solution.

So do check that out.

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Be sure you subscribe.

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this, if you download it as many

episodes as possible, that's great.

If you're watching over on
YouTube, leave a comment.

Like the video.

And leave a review.

So I'm giving you a bunch of calls to
action, which is a little bit of a sin.

But when you get a chance,
I really do appreciate it.

Thanks a lot.

We'll catch you in the next episode.