Ranking Revolution

Welcome to the raking revolution podcast.

Your go-to source for strategies
and ideas for SEO, organic growth,

content creation and business.

I'm Doug, Cunnington your host.

This is part two of the interview with
Jason Barnard, founder of Kelly cube.

If you missed part one, just hit the back
button or go to the previous episode.

Check that one out.

This is a continuation of that.

So we're just going to jump right
into it and get into more details.

With Jason.

Doug: For specific entities.

Can you give just like one or two
examples, maybe the ones that people

need to look at super closely.

Jason: Jason Barnard

:
The company, the CEO, the
founder, the reviewer.

If you're in YMYL, that's
particularly important.

Who has reviewed all your articles?

Get that person understood and Google
will then understand that somebody

qualified has reviewed all these articles.

The authors, those are the key ones
for the global website and content.

But then you would also want
to go into the products.

Products are entities, so you want
it to understand your products.

Or your services as entities.

But generally speaking, at Kalicube,
when people come to us, I would

love to do all of that in one go.

Jason Barnard

:
But number one, it costs too much money.

Number two, it's too much work too fast.

So what we generally do
is start with the company.

And people say, I want to optimize
my website for entity understanding

and N-E-E-A-T credibility.

We said, but it's not the website that
Google will apply all these signals to,

it's the company behind the website.

Even though the company behind the
website is simply a legal entity

that allows you to run the website.

Google needs to understand the company
because once it's understood the company,

it can understand who owns the website and
therefore start applying these signals.

So the website is important,
but it represents the company

rather than the other way around.

Jason Barnard

:
So we start with that.

If the CEO or founder has an online
presence and is the face of the company,

which is often the case, we need to work
on them, because Google is looking for

relationships that are close, strong
and long, and the CEO is close and

strong, but it's not necessarily long.

The founder is close,
strong and long permanent.

So we want the closest, strongest, longest
relationships we can find and build an

understanding in Google's brain of company
CEO, founder, website authors, reviewer.

And if we come to the authors, which
is a really interesting point, is

last year in July, there was a huge
update to the Knowledge Graph, and

Google tripled the number of people
in the Knowledge Graph in four days.

So imagine they had 500 million people
in the Knowledge Graph on the 1st of

July, 4 days later they had 1000 500
million people in the Knowledge Graph.

It tripled the number of people.

It didn't add any companies, it
didn't add any events, it didn't

add any product, it added people.

Jason Barnard

:
Why?

Because it wants to understand
who the authors are.

Because that's how it can apply E-E-A-T
signals, or N-E-E-A-T signals as we

call them, because a person generally
doesn't have a website and will write for

multiple websites, whereas the company
owning the website is static and fixed,

the author will skip from site to site.

So that's the only way Google
could actually move towards a

better application of N-E-E-A-T
credibility and leave links behind.

Almost obviously, links still do count.

But if you think about links, imagine what
I'm saying with reviews, with history,

with all the things I've written, all
the podcasts I've been on, the cumulative

value of all of those credibility
signals is huge compared to links.

Let's say links is 10%,
the rest of it is 90%.

If you're sticking just to links.

You're missing out on 90% of the
opportunity for credibility in Google's

eyes and indeed in your audience's eye.

Jason Barnard

:
Doug: Sorry, I get overexcited.

Douglas Cunnington

:
That's great.

Though I was going to say, I
suspect you've been talking about

this stuff for about eight or nine
years and it's still the first time

some people are hearing about it.

Jason Barnard

:
Jason: Yeah.

And to be fair to people and the
world, I built Kalicube Pro in 2015

because I understood all of this
and I was naive because I thought

that's what Google could already do.

But it's actually taken Google
eight years to catch up with me.

It can do it now.

It couldn't do it eight years ago.

So I built a machine for the future.

Isn't that lovely?

And eight years ahead of time.

I've been waiting for the whole thing
to catch up with me, which is brilliant.

Jason Barnard

:
But it also means that I now
have the machine that does the

right job at the right time.

And I don't need to wait
a year or two years to get

developers to build it for me.

It already exists and it's the
only one in the world of its kind.

Others are gonna copy us.

Now my job is to figure out what the next
machine is for eight years down the line.

And I've sent a video to my team and
we've decided already exactly where

we're going with it and we know where
we need to go and very, very, very

sure that we're on the right path.

Douglas

Doug: Cunnington

:
That's cool.

At the end of the interview, I'll
get you to tell me what it is.

So everybody hang on till the end.

All right, couple things I
want to highlight, so we'll

come back to Google updates.

I want to ask you about helpful content
updates and what all the work that

someone can do that you just mentioned,
making sure Google understands their

brand or their personal brand and how
that potentially could insulate them

from helpful content updates or similar.

Before we get to that, I've
been pushing actually for years.

People should be on podcast, they should
be on YouTube channels, do collaborations

and just get out there more.

And not too many people have the
maybe it's confidence, maybe they're

nervous to try something new, to
actually try to be on podcast.

Douglas Cunnington

:
You and I, that's what we're doing.

We're quite comfortable with it, but
it's hard for people to get into it.

So you actually highlighted it, but I want
you to go a little bit deeper if possible.

If there's more to add about how
important it is to be out there, speak

at conferences and really network,
whether it is podcasts, YouTube,

conferences, et cetera, how important

Jason: is that.

Jason Barnard

:
Right.

Well, that's a really interesting question
from the perspective of is more better.

And one thing that's happening
today is entity stacking.

And people think if I create lots of
different profiles and push them to

Google, Google will understand me and
it will understand my entity rather.

And at Kalicube, we talk
about understanding and then

confidence in that understanding.

Now, the problem with entity stacking
is that you're creating understanding

by repetition across multiple platforms.

However, those platforms are not relevant
to your audience, so you're actually

throwing a huge curveball to Google.

The other problem is that they're
very difficult to maintain over time.

Jason Barnard

:
We all change over time,
we all evolve over time.

How are you going to keep maintaining
those without creating inconsistency?

And over time, inconsistency is
going to be your biggest enemy there.

So non relevant, inconsistent.

You've got two problems
when you do entity stacking.

Less is more here, if I can do less, but
it's more relevant and I can maintain

it over time, that understanding will
build and build and build in confidence.

And that confidence in the
understanding is what's gonna be the

huge trick to play in the future.

If you're asking me what is the next
step, the next immediate step in the

next two or three years is confidence.

So if you build a small digital ecosystem
and you maintain it very well and it's

relevant, you will have understanding, and
you will have confidence in understanding.

Jason Barnard

:
And I'll give you example
of two people on our team.

Allyssa Reyes and Mary
Ann Buarao have both built

Knowledge Panels for themselves.

They have tiny digital footprints,
but because they're so clean, they're

so consistent, and because they're
listed on Kalicube, Google trusts

Kalicube, they get the Knowledge Panel.

So more is not better.

More is actually a problem.

And the other is moving into the NEEATT.

Once Google's understood who you are and
it's confident in who you are, you need

to then convince it of your credibility.

Obviously, if the different
platforms are irrelevant, that's

gonna damage your credibility.

Jason Barnard

:
But then credibility is also to do
with notability, demonstrating your

expertise, demonstrating your authority,
demonstrating your experience, then

demonstrating how trustworthy you are, and
doing it all in a very transparent manner.

At that point, getting on the podcasts,
getting your name out there, getting your

face out there becomes hugely valuable.

But once again, do it with care.

It's not scattergun hit and hope.

Maybe it'll work.

It's focusing on your audience,
because if we come right back to the

conversation from before, Google is
constantly looking over your shoulder.

Who is this person engaging with?

Who are they related to?

Who are they on the podcast with?

Does this make sense to the cohort
that I expect them to belong to?

And if you think about cohorts, I'm at the
middle of the cohort in Digital Marketing.

Let's say if I suddenly do a podcast
about plumbing that doesn't talk about

Digital Marketing at all, Digital
Marketing for plumbers will be fine.

Jason Barnard

:
But if I'm on a plumbing podcast
talking about how I love to fiddle with

my pipes in my home, which sounds a
bit strange now I say it, it's like a

magnet pulling me away from the center
of the cohort I actually belong to.

So it's damaging Google's understanding,
its confidence in its understanding, but

also my NEEATT, because NEEATT is niche.

Ooh, I like that.

NEEATT is niche.

Doug: Douglas Cunnington

:
Alliterations are always good.

Okay.

It's interesting because again, I'm
thinking about my own digital footprint

out there and it is somewhat scattered.

I actually have like two podcasts.

I'm in this sort of SEO and
Digital Marketing area, but I'm

also in the financial independence
and personal finance area.

And the thing is, I have two
things going on in separate

areas and I'm fine with that.

So I can see how it can
get a little scattered.

And then additionally, one thing that I
have going on, and this is just kind of

an odd thing, probably a little unusual.

Douglas Cunnington

:
So I have the keyword golden ratio and
there are a lot of blogs that thought,

oh, I'm going to write an article on that.

And they just go regurgitate
the information typically.

And a lot of times they'll mention
my name, but they don't link back

to my site because they're trying
to rank for the term, right.

So they're just like, this is
a cool idea, it's good for the

blog, and they go from there.

So not only do I have not very
much control, but because I'm

out there talking about things,
people will also write about it.

And then it is so scattered.

So I could see how it can get complicated.

But I think perhaps I'm kind
of a rare example because I am

spread in two different areas
that are basically unrelated.

Douglas Cunnington

:
So any thoughts on that?

I mean, there's no question there.

Jason: Jason Barnard

:
No, well, there is multifacetedness.

All human beings are multifaceted.

Some are more multifaceted than others.

But getting Google to understand that we
have multiple facets is part of our job.

So if we go back to Boowa, the Blue Dog
and the double bass punk folk music,

that information still exists online.

Google still knows that I was a
musician and that I was a blue

dog, but it doesn't focus on it.

And that's the hugely
difficult balance to keep.

And I think that is actually probably the
biggest value added that Kalicube brings,

because doing it yourself, it's gonna be
impossible for you to find that balance.

Jason Barnard

:
Doing it with data.

Data from Google through the Kalicube
Pro platform allows us to figure out

where that balance is going to be.

And I'll give you a really good example.

Sorry, you're talking about
the helpful content update.

And Gary Illyes said, lots
of classification, we've

reclassified lots of stuff.

We've become significantly
better at classification.

The Knowledge Graph update
two months before was people

Google deleted the subtitles of.

I think it was about half all the
people in the Knowledge Graph.

Jason Barnard

:
A subtitle is a categorization.

They deleted absolutely loads.

50%, let's say.

I can't remember if
that's the right number.

Please don't quote me on it.

Look at the article we wrote
about the Killer Whale Update,

which is what we called it.

The Knowledge Graph update from
July is the biggest update I

have seen in 25 years, working
alongside Google by a long chalk.

And there is no understating how huge
this was, because it's the day the

Knowledge Graph suddenly got involved with
a helpful content update that is huge.

Jason Barnard

:
But the one thing that they reclassified
the least is writers and authors,

which clearly indicates they're looking
for who's written the article, who's

producing the content, so they can
apply N-E-E-A-T signals and start to

figure out where the AI content is.

Because if it knows who the author is, it
knows it's not AI, unless the author is

cheating and using AI, in which case they
use author vectors to decide if the author

actually did write the article or not.

And author vectors is something
Bill Slawski talked to me about,

is it's basically your fingerprint.

You have a style of writing that the
machine can identify at a glance.

Is this you, or is it AI?

Is it you or is it a ghost writer?

It knows who you are and it
can therefore understand.

Did you write it or not?

Then you get your N-E-E-A-T signals, then
you're in a really powerful position.

So, ironically, in the age
of AI, handwriting stuff is

gonna be more valuable if
you're recognized as an entity.

I've actually forgotten
where this question started.

Jason Barnard

:
All of a sudden, oh, it
was about classification.

And so the example I was going to give
you is that I used to be a musician.

In Google's brain, it's a
Jason Barnard, musician.

I was classified as a musician
because the musician side of me is the

most easy for Google to understand.

Then it classified me
as an SEO professional.

Then we got it to change me to author.

Writer.

No.

Jason Barnard

:
When we published the book, this
book here, the fundamentals of

Brand SERPs for business, I got
myself reclassified as an author.

Google did the Killer Whale Update and
reclassified a lot of people as authors

and writers because it was saying,
for example, Olga Zarr was saying,

oh, I want to be an SEO professional.

He said, no, you don't.

You want to be a writer
who specializes in SEO.

It's better to be recognized by Google
as a writer who has a specialist

topic than be an SEO in Google's
brain because then your content has

more value in terms of credibility.

Then of course, Kalicube being Kalicube,
Jason Barnard being Jason Barnard.

I can't let that lie.

So against the flow of what Google's
trying to do, identify writers, I

decided to change my subtitle to
entrepreneur and we just managed it.

Jason Barnard

:
It took us two months.

So Google then switched me from
writer to entrepreneur so I can

get Google to reclassify people.

And that classification is huge
because as an entrepreneur, if you

think about whatever projects I'm
doing as an author, my credibility

gets applied to my articles.

As an entrepreneur, my credibility
gets applied to my company.

That's better for me.

If I start another project, my credibility
will be applied to that other project.

So you really need to think about your
categorization, your classification, to

understand which is the best one for you
in terms of your audience and Google.

And obviously for my audience, if
I'm going out saying, well, I'm an

SEO professional, you know great,
wonderful, I'm an entrepreneur,

that's pretty impressive.

Jason Barnard

:
Makes me seem more important
even though I'm not.

So being able to, and I will say the
word manipulate Google is huge power.

Doug: Douglas Cunnington

:
That's great.

It makes me really think
about what I might need to do.

I'm lazy by nature, so I may not do
anything and just let it sit where it

is, but I'm writing a book right now,
so there could be a scenario where it

makes sense for me to really manipulate,
or you know it's giving Google the data

that we want it to see sort of upfront I

Jason: think.

Jason Barnard

:
It's shining a light on the stuff that
we want Google to focus on, which is

what I did with the blue dog, what
I'm now doing with entrepreneur.

It's really important to
make sure that you decide.

Google, John Mueller, Gary Illyes.

They don't make Google guess.

It's a bit trite as a thing to say,
but it's you who makes the decision.

You decide which pages are important
on your website that should be indexed.

You decide who you are.

You decide how you should be
perceived by your audience.

Jason Barnard

:
Don't let Google make its own mind up.

And here's an analogy I did use in the
past and I've forgotten about for a while,

is letting Google decide who you are and
how to represent you to your audience

is like letting your mother pick your
clothes to go to the high school dance.

Douglas

Doug: That's a good one.

we're coming up towards the end here.

Do you have a hard stop, by the way?

Jason Barnard

:
Yeah, nine minutes.

Douglas Cunnington

:
Okay, perfect.

So quickly, let's cover two things.

One, I'm curious about helpful
content update, maybe some

of the other recent updates.

I know you're focusing more on Brand SERPs
versus just SERPs in general, but what

have you seen from maybe the companies
you work with that had a good handle of

their Brand SERP versus companies that
did not and how they might be impacted?

Jason: Jason Barnard

:
Which is a lovely question, because our
clients see growth in business through the

multichannel marketing that we're doing,
the omnichannel marketing that we do.

So we will place them to be standing
where their audience is looking on the

platforms our audience hangs out on.

Show that audience that they have the
solution, invite them down the funnel,

which is usually to their website.

That is what the Kalicube Process does.

By optimizing your digital ecosystem,
Google then sees that you are serving

the subset of its users who are your
audience on these different platforms.

So it understands that on LinkedIn,
you're engaging with your audience

and your audience is engaging with
you in a positive manner on YouTube,

on Forbes, and that audience is then
going to your website and converting.

Google sees that you're
satisfying these people.

Google's a recommendation engine.

Jason Barnard

:
It sees that you're a great
solution wherever you're

solving the person's problem.

And at that point, it's always
gonna recommend you over the

competition because it knows that
you can serve your audience better.

That's where the packaging of
Google for Google comes in.

If you can package all of these different
platforms, including your own website,

in a way that makes it easy for Google to
digest and understand that you're serving

the subset of its users who your audience,
it will recommend you as long as you have

the content that satisfies that need.

So the word holistic gets overused,
but this is truly holistic.

Being able to demonstrate to Google
that you're serving your audience means

that you have to actually serve your
audience, which is great for business.

And then Google is simply a
natural extension of that.

It wants to recommend the best in market.

Jason Barnard

:
You need to demonstrate
you're the best in market.

To demonstrate you're the
best in market, you actually

need to be the best in market.

So we're looking at
business and SEO comes last.

Douglas Cunnington

:
Doug: now, Knowledge Panel.

So I have a lot of content out there,
and based on what you said, some of your

team, they have Knowledge Panels and
they have kind of a small footprint.

So it seems like something I
should be able to get a handle on.

What would it take without
knowing anything other than I've

published a lot of stuff over time.

How long do you think it would
take for me to have a Knowledge

Panel with the things that I want
to be shown and displayed there?

Jason: Jason Barnard

:
Right.

Very practical question.

Knowledge is in Google's brain is in
three month iterations, so you can

expect improvements every three months.

So if you cleaned up your digital
ecosystem today or this week, in

three months time, you would expect
to get a Knowledge Panel sprout, which

is just that, the Knowledge Panel
exists, but Google doesn't show it.

When somebody searches your name,
but it exists in Google's brain,

it just doesn't display it.

And at Kalicube, we've got tools
that will help, free tools, indeed,

that will help you find that.

Once you have that, you can give
that as a reference to Google

on which you can hook all of the
other information you're giving it.

So you can then say, this is me
in your system, and these are all

the corroborative sources that
prove that what's going on here

is exactly what the truth is.

Jason Barnard

:
Three months later, sorry, you
will have a bigger Knowledge Panel.

So it might have your name, your
photo, your description, and two

social media channels at that point.

If your name is ambiguous, it won't
trigger when somebody searches

your name, but if your name isn't
ambiguous, it probably will.

If you're in a geo region where you're
notable, then it probably will as well.

But it wouldn't trigger in Australia.

If you're living in Canada, three months
later, you would probably have your age,

a company you founded, and potentially the
people also search for, which is the other

people that Google associates with you.

So your cohort and that's when you
start to see where Google sees you as

part of the Internet, the wider world.

And after twelve months you
would expect to have what we

call the Knowledge Panel cards.

Jason Barnard

:
If you search for Leonardo DiCaprio, you
will see a really lovely representation

with Knowledge Panel cards that are
colored with a video, with Twitter,

with photos, with information.

And that process, if you do it
right, would take about twelve

months in three month iterations.

And one point about the Knowledge Panel
cards, if you search for somebody,

Beyonce, Leonardo DiCaprio, who are
famous, you say, yeah, that's normal.

If you search for Jason
Barnard, J-A-S-O-N-B-A-R-N-A-R-D

you'll see the same thing.

I look really famous, but I'm not.

Google is simply very confident and
wants to represent me in the best

way it can because I've educated
it over the last twelve years.

And those Knowledge Panel cards
are actually a precursor to

search generative experience.

They were the first iteration of search
generative experience and they've

been around for three years, I think
now maybe four, and we mastered how

to manage them two, three years ago.

Jason Barnard

:
So search generative experience
for Kalicube is a tiny step from

what we were already doing and what
we realized when it was launched.

Bing Chat, then search engine
experience in 2023 is Kalicube

had already solved that problem
before it even became a problem.

Douglas Cunnington

:
That's cool.

Doug: All right, we
got to wrap it up here.

I'm going to link up to all the
places that you're available,

but can you tell us who the right
user and customer is for Kalicube?

Jason Barnard

:
Yeah.

Jason: Anybody who has a personal
brand that's important for

their business or their career.

So if you own a company, if you're
the founder of a company, a CEO of a

company, your personal brand is part
of the representation of your business.

You are the face of the company.

You're the perfect client for us.

If you're an aspiring actor, an
aspiring writer, but you're a C

list celebrity and you want to
appear to be a B list celebrity,

we can make that happen for you.

We can make you look more
important, more famous, more

authoritative than you really are.

If you're on the speaking circuit,
people are gonna Google your name

before they book you to speak.

Jason Barnard

:
If they see this incredibly
impressive result, they'll think,

oh, they're a B list celebrity.

I'll book them in because it's going
to bring the audience, but you're

actually a C or a D list celebrity.

A friend of mine said to me,
Jason, you're a D list celebrity.

I was so disappointed.

And then he said publish a book and
we can move you up to the c list.

But in fact, your Knowledge Panel already
makes you look like a B list celebrity.

So you don't need the book because
the appearances is what matters.

That's really cool.

Douglas Cunnington

:
Awesome.

Jason Barnard

:
Jason Scott Thurman, shame on
you for saying that to me, but

it was a really good insight.

Doug: Douglas Cunnington

:
Yeah, it's a good, great analogy.

And, yeah, this has been
a real pleasure, Jason.

I wish we could talk for long.

Pulling the bass around.

The double bass around.

Yeah, the cat.

Great guest as well.

So, yeah, have a great day.

Douglas Cunnington

:
This has been a wonderful interview.

And we'll link up so everyone can find you
and Kalicube and Google Jason out there.

Check out his Knowledge Panel.

Jason: Jason Barnard

:
Brilliant.

Thank

Thanks so much to Jason.

Be sure to check out Kelly.

The cube.

I still haven't spent a lot of time.

Trying to get my knowledge
panel altogether.

And it's just one of those things.

I think I have a lot of the pieces
in place, but right now, It just

wasn't a priority, although I'm sure
if I talked to Jason again, I would

probably get really pumped about it
and I'd be ready to hop over there.

But anyway, I'll put
links in the description.

So you can follow along with Jason.

And if you dig the show, if you dig
these episodes, you could help me out

by leaving a review, making sure you're
subscribed and leaving a comment.

If you happen to watch over on
YouTube, I appreciate your help in

any support that you can provide.

Thanks a lot.

And we'll catch you on the next episode.