Ranking Revolution

Doug: Hey, what's going on?

Welcome to the ranking revolution podcast.

My name is Doug Cunnington.

I'm your host today.

In this episode, I chat with Kyle
roof about the keyword golden ratio.

He actually suggested the idea to me.

Which I thought was outstanding
because it allows us to talk about

me without directly talking about me.

So it was pretty fun and Kyle did awesome.

And if you're unfamiliar with Kyle,
number one, be sure to check out

the previous episode where we talk
about SEO testing, but I can tell

you a quick little intro about Kyle.

Kyle is involved in many SEO and
online businesses from the on

page SEO tool, Page Optimizer Pro.

Some people call it POP.

And he also does training at
Internet Marketing Gold, IMG.

Kyle's also a co founder of the SEO
Estonia conference, and he's a speaker

and attendee of many SEO and online
marketing conferences across the world.

He has dedicated nearly a decade
of his life to SEO testing.

He's published more than 400
scientific tests that he's

executed and Provided the results.

Most of those are over in internet
marketing gold IMG, over the years, Kyle

has developed and fine tune a method
to test whether single variables are

ranking factors in the Google algorithm.

And that is the topic
of the previous episode.

In fact, he actually has a patent.

On this, which was granted in January
of 2020, which is pretty cool.

Like I said, we talk about the keyword
golden ratio in this episode, we

talk about the pros and the cons
and the pitfalls and how you could

use the KGR to sell effectively
and get results for your clients.

Especially if you're a, you know,
small agency operator, of course you

could scale it up if you have a big
agency, but it KGR just sounds good.

Keyword golden ratio.

It's something that you can bring to
the client, explain what it is, explain

how it's data driven and go from there.

So let's hear from Kyle on the KGR.

All right.

So let's talk about the
keyword golden ratio.

That's something I created and
talked about for a few years.

And I kept talking about it.

And then finally, I can't remember if
you and I connected first, Kyle, but

I have to thank you for mentioning
KGR at conferences and for people

that don't know, I'll, I'll link up
to more information, but essentially

it forces, especially beginners,
it forces people to look at lower

competition, long tail keywords, sort
of by the definition, it's very simple

for a newer person to implement and.

The other part, which only occurred to me
later, it's a pretty good sales tactic.

As we talked about in the previous
segment, if you're talking to a client

and they don't know much about SEO
keyword, golden ratio, it sounds cool.

And then you can show very simple
data without getting too detailed.

And that's where you lose a
lot of people, whether they're

beginners or their clients.

But number one, Kyle, thank you for
mentioning KGR and mentioning me.

Cause people come and they're
like, Hey, I heard Kyle

mentioned you, you must be okay.

So thank you.

And then the other part is you have
found really good success with KGR.

I think last time we talked,
you said maybe like a 70

to 80 percent success rate.

However, you address some
of the issues with the KGR.

So again, like before I'm going to
kind of leave it open, but can you

tell me about your experience with
keyword golden ratio and some of the

tips and improvements that you found?

Kyle: Well, first of all, you have
to think that keyword golden ratio

has to be the best branded term
in all of SEO marketing, right?

Because there, there is, there
is nothing golden ratio about it.

And if people know what the
golden ratio is, this is not the

golden ratio, but it is mathy.

Right.

And I think because it is mathy,
I think you get away with it.

Also, people have probably no
idea what the golden ratio is.

Anyway, they

Doug: forget that they forget every

Kyle: time.

I like, you know, we've been, it's
a million years since we've been in

high school and taking a math class.

What is the golden ratio?

Who knows?

Who knows who cares, but
I love the branded term.

I think it's the perfectly branded term.

Would you, so I think it's fair
to say that when KGR came out, it

really came out like gangbusters.

And I think a lot of people
were talking about it.

And then I think a lot of people
started getting mixed results with it.

Like, I think initially,
like, I think the results were

really high and really hitting.

And then I think maybe some of the
results tapered off and I think

enthusiasm for it dropped a little bit.

Do you think that's fair?

Yes.

Not to.

And so what I got into 2019
ish was, um, avalanche theory,

avalanche theory looks at a way to
determine how strong your site is.

Uh, is really what it is as, as base
level in a way so that without using

a third party tool you know, that's
giving you a metric of a DR 30.

What the hell is that?

But it's looking at how strong you
are based on the amount of clicks

that you're getting from Google.

This is the original theory.

And what it speaks to is it says,
Hey, look, your actual strength is

how many clicks Google's giving you.

And so a site that is only getting 10
clicks you know, a day, that's here

at level one, kind of a site, a site
that's getting a thousand clicks a

day, then it's at level, whatever,
level 4, 000, if you want to do that.

And the idea is that you can start to
classify what types of keywords you

can go after with little to no SEO.

Where if you launch a term that's
within your tier, Google will trust

you for it because you're, you're
launching it at a correct level.

And the example I give all the
time is let's say you did one of

those longer tail phrases, right?

And, and you launched and you really
didn't do too much of the page and

you're just immediately on, on page two.

And you're an SEO God.

And then you do one that
looks exactly the same.

You do the exact same process and
you don't crack the top 100 and you

feel like a complete SEO failure.

And what's the difference
between those two terms?

When they look, when they
look the same, right?

The idea is that one was probably within
your tier and Google just trusted you.

The other one was not.

And if Google doesn't trust you, if it's
not within your tier, that's when you

need boosts is, is what the theory says
and boosts would be more intense on page

SEO, more intense internal linking, and
in particular, and mostly external signal,

that's where you need backlinks to get
you up so that you can then compete.

But the idea is.

The more you rely on boosts, the more
susceptible you are to Google updates.

Anytime there's an update, you know, while
Google give it, Google will take it away.

And the biggest thing that will
take away are those backlinks.

And then a penalty in this
theory isn't really getting hit.

It's just Google taking it
back down to where you belong.

Is it is the concept, so the, the idea
is if you can post within your tier and

those will rank quickly with basically
no SEO as you gain more clicks, then you

can go after terms with higher search
volume and then you post in that and then

you get more clicks and then you go after
terms of higher search volume and then

you can climb this ladder, go up these
tiers and essentially you've done SEO

with no SEO or very, very limited SEO, so
there's nothing for Google to take away.

It's an extremely safe process.

To grow out your, your, your SEO.

Now there are a lot of that's it's a,
it's a, that's a very basic version of it.

That's not a complete SEO
theory, but it's, I think,

foundationally very, very good.

So something that I realized with
KGR is that I can combine these

ideas of avalanche with KGR because
avalanche works best when you're

also finding low competition terms.

So the idea is if you identify what your
tier is and how you identify your tiers,

you take your low clicks for the month and
then your high clicks for the month and

like a three month spread and you want to
make sure that's a normal three months for

you and then you average those together.

So let's say your average is 50,
you're averaging 50 clicks a day.

That means you can go after
keyword with a monthly search

volume of 50, probably 50 to 100.

That gives you the range of your terms.

So now you can apply KGR
as a filter on, onto that.

So just because you find a KGR term,
you know, there might be, I think

you actually cap KGR like 250, right?

Is what you, you recommend.

Thing is, let's, I think a lot of people
come in, they've got a brand new site.

And they're, they really should
only be going after terms that are

like 10, but they're finding terms
at 150 that's outside their tier.

And even though the KGR is correct.

It's probably not going to work
for their site because they just

don't they're not in the right tier.

The site does not have that authority.

So what I started doing was determining
tier 1st, adding in KGR as a check.

And then 1 more check.

And this is if you really want to get into
it is you take KGR as the next filter.

As that's the really next
most important filter.

And then just use one other thing.

Any tool you like Moz, SEM
rush, Ahrefs, doesn't matter.

And then find whatever they consider
low, uh, medium to low difficulty.

And if you get a keyword that satisfies
all those things, it's in your tier, gets

through KGR, and it gets to that one extra
check, the hit rates about 80 percent on

that, where you're going to launch it.

With no SEO, you're putting it
in the URL, the page title and

the H one, maybe one time in the
body and you're writing for it.

And then what happens is they start
to get clicks and impressions.

Your tier raises up and then you can go
and then really this is foundational so

that you're building all the strength now.

What I use this is for
my supporting pages.

I've got target pages that
are outside the tier, right?

And that's okay.

I'm building all these guys and as
they juice up as they're ready for

those keywords, they're getting
those clicks and their impressions.

I link them together.

I link to the target page.

Now I'm boosting that target page with
this strength that I've been able to

determine with KGR is a huge part of it.

Yeah.

And, uh, relying less and less on external
backlinks and, uh, just creating these

fantastically strong sites that are
mostly impervious to Google updates.

Doug: Awesome.

So one thing to go back to, I think, like
you mentioned, KGR was pretty effective.

I think I released it in 2016.

2017 was actually inside a course and I
was like, I think this is the best idea.

I don't want to put that outside of the
course, but then like many marketers

realize you get your best ideas out and
then that'll help everything else out.

I think.

It started to get more saturated.

Just there's enough of us out
there that we're publishing things.

So it was more effective with
sort of higher search volumes

outside the normal tiers.

If we go with the avalanche theory,
nomenclature, and basically As time

went on, I was like, go after, you
know, 10, 20 searches per month.

If it's reported zero searches
per month, but it looks like a

good keyword, keep going for that.

So it totally makes sense.

And most people that I was advising
were either brand new sites.

So it makes sense to go with a kind of
the lowest search volume that there is.

Or sites that were stagnant, or maybe
they experienced some decline and

it was a way to sort of jumpstart
their lower competition area.

Really, like you said, supporting pages
around like a, a cluster topic area.

So one, one other thing
I'm curious, your opinion.

So there were some, there were some
suggestions and actually some things

Internally that I would use to just add
additional checks and part of the magic

with the KGR is there's very few factors.

There's not, there's no parentheses.

It's just like divide this.

You have a ratio like move from there.

There's some baked in things because
of the way the ratio is created.

Are there any other factors
aside, you know, you mentioned

the avalanche theory and that
additional filtering mechanism to.

Get rid of some of the stuff that wasn't
going to work out those keywords, but

any other thoughts that you had where
you're like, Oh, it'd be good to throw

in some other competition factors, some
word count, some other thing that would

make it more complicated and less usable.

Kyle: The, um, the, the two biggest
parts of it are combining the idea of

your Appalachian tier, figuring out
what your strength is, the level that

Google will immediately trust you.

With KGR, that that's, those
are the two biggest steps.

The competition part comes in throwing
out one additional check with an SEM rush

or an AHS to find their difficulty level
and get medium or below on that, because

then that will kind of every once in a
while, you're going to get a term where.

It meets everything, but then you go and
look at the SERPs 80, you know, right?

You know, yeah, we're not gonna get that
so that that's kind of like that one

additional kind of external check normal
check You can skip that if you want.

You're still gonna be pretty successful.

You're gonna be very successful One
caveat I would put on everything.

I just said when I talk about an avalanche
That's the very basic version of it.

And this is not my theory.

It comes from Chris Semper of SerpLoop And
you can read about this in builder society

and it's called SEO with no resources
which I strongly recommend you reading.

That is a great first step.

I would say that it's missing.

It's not a complete SEO.

You don't like.

And now our SEO is done.

Like, there's a lot more, there are
more things SEO, but foundationally,

this is an excellent thing.

And I've adapted a lot of it from,
from those initial concepts as well.

And what I've used in practice
and what I talk about when I'm

on stage and stuff like that.

So there, there is.

More a little bit more to it and as
you work with it, but the basic concept

of avalanche plus KGR is just a home
run for doing evergreen SEO that kind

of builds this moat this like layer
of protection around your site from

Google is essentially you are doing SEO.

With good research,
which I absolutely love.

It's not a trick.

It's not a gimmick.

It's finding these parameters,
finding these keywords that meet

these conditions and then applying it.

And then from there, I mean, you've done
everything within Google's guidelines.

You haven't done anything
that's outside the guidelines.

This is why hat is white at can
be, and it only kind of perpetuates

the cycle of good for your site.

You know, as you do this, as
you've got this content and as you

continue to go up the tiers, your
site is just getting stronger.

And then what happens is, is then
those other things in SEO that you

know that work, they work better.

You know, then you continue to do those
things that you know, and you've got

this foundation that's just making
the site stronger and stronger.

Anything else that you know how to do
that is effective becomes more effective.

And though, if this technique that
you're doing, the timeline Google

doesn't like it as much, you know,
the boat doesn't rock as much either.

Your dips are not as dippy
when you're doing it this way.

Doug: So you're not currently doing
client work, but you had some agency

experience in the past few years.

Is that is that accurate?

Kyle: Yeah, with high voltage.

So we founded that in 2014.

I believe

Doug: from a sales perspective, how could.

A smaller agency owner or even
a solo operator use KGR to maybe

like help close deals or grow the
revenue from a particular client.

Of course, I mean, we want to make
sure they're getting success, but do

you have any tips on how to use KGR?

Kyle: Well, absolutely.

So you can turn this concept
into your own branded thing.

So this isn't.

You know, you want to productize
everything that you're doing, so

your keyword research isn't, you
know, keyword research and it's not

necessarily KGR, but it's like, you
know, this is the, the SEO optimizer

5000 technique or whatever it is.

And, and, and, but then what's really
nice is with the math, you can show

that it's not fairy dust, you know,
it's not rolling chicken bones.

SEO, it's actually math based and I'll
show you the math, you know, we're

going to do this because obviously we
know how to do it better than you do,

but we can actually say that this is
math based and this is why we do it.

And these are the results we're expecting.

And that can take you into such a
practical, because as you said, the

beauty of KGR is the simplicity of it.

Take this, divide that, shimmy it
over here, bingo, bingo, bongo.

Now we're really just adding one
other step to say like, okay,

this is the tier we're going for.

This is the volume keyword
that we want to hit.

Now we're doing KGR on top of that.

And now we've got a recipe for success
that's repeatable that's understandable

and we can apply immediately.

And it's got me too.

You get quick wins out of this.

You get wins in one month.

So then maybe even while you're
doing an SEO audit, you can see

like, you know, these other guys,
they've got to do audit in month one.

Yeah, we're gonna do an audit one month
because that's just due diligence.

At the same time, we're actually going
to do our first round of avalanche

content and on the agency, we call
it compound SEO because you know,

you're, you're, the interest is
compounding as you, as you go up.

So we can start compound.

We can start round one of compound
SEO and we're going to crank out

15 compound articles right now.

And it's, it's based on this math based
concept and we can start to get some

quick wins in month one or month two.

Doug: Awesome.

And yeah, I'm happy to license
it to agencies out there.

Just shoot me an email.

I'm sure we could work out a good
deal and you could put keyword golden

ratio right there on your reports.

So

Kyle: you can do like your name, your
name in like a font, like a scripted font.

I think the logo

Doug: will be like the.

A bald head with like the
actually the keyword or the golden

ratio like shown on my head.

It's the perfect roundness.

No one actually knew just
like math equations coming

Kyle: out.

Okay.

So,

Doug: final question.

KGR has been around
for a little while now.

And you mentioned like, It was
pretty effective at first, and

then maybe it tapered a little bit.

Now we have a lot of AI impacts, both
for, you know, writing content, the

amount of content that's out there,
how Google is treating content in

general and showing results and.

Or do you have any fear that like KGR
or even like avalanche theory will

become less effective because of just
massive changes in the SEO industry?

Kyle: Well, so I've seen people that have
started sites after the March core and

Everything that we've been talking about
works, you know, I think sites have been

hit by March core sites been hit by HC.

They could live in purgatory for a
couple years, which really sucks.

I've heard a couple rumors of some
recoveries in the last week, and

maybe we're going to see a few.

More in the next month.

And I really hope that we do,
but there's a decent chance.

It's very similar to 2012 when Penguin
came out and those sites that were hit

by Penguin languished for years before
those domains are able to do anything.

And I think this might be something
similar, but what this tells me is it's

actually more of a manual thing than
an algorithmic, meaning if your site

got through this huge, loud display of
Google doing this thing to force people

to conform to however they want to do
it and people get scared and all that.

But if your site made it through.

Techniques going to work if you started
a new site since then the techniques are

working so I'm not overly concerned about
it The new features I think it's similar

to when the featured snippets came out
that haircut on traffic was about like

10 maybe Maybe I think it's probably
something let's call it 15 The market will

adjust to that and I think we'll still
be We'll still be doing the same stuff

for the next few years at least Yeah.

Doug: And, uh, just as a quick note,
it's March 21st when we're recording

this, just to add a date on it.

And I, I broke my own rule Kyle, because
I was like, all right, we don't want

to say anything too super timely,
but I could, I know we're not going

to be able to talk too much longer.

So I was like, I just personally want
to know what you think about this.

And it's interesting because
I have like, like we do a few

months ago, I bought a new domain.

I was like, I got a new project idea.

I usually try to suppress those feelings.

So that I don't start new things
while I have like 80 things going.

And I've been sitting on it
for a while, but I've heard new

sites are getting traction too.

And it's just like, I mean, if,
if the sites were ran and they got

hit by the updates, then who knows
what's going to happen, but like

new sites are getting traction.

So, okay.

Very cool.

Kyle, this has been amazing.

It's always so fun to talk to you
and hopefully we'll be able to meet

in person sometime before too long.

I don't know when our travel schedules
will align, but where do you want

people to find you and we'll link
up for everyone to go check it out,

but yeah, where, where are you at?

Where do you, what do you want people to.

Look at from you?

Kyle: Yeah, they can, I, they can hit me
at Page Optimizer Pro or, um, IMG courses.

Either of those are, are fine.

If you have questions, the, both,
the support staffs on, on both those

sites can get those to me as well.

So that's probably the best way to do it.

Doug: Alright.

And people can probably expect to
see you out at conferences across

the world and you're That's right.

You're often a speaker.

I think you hang out a lot.

So people will be able to walk
right up and just say hello.

Kyle: Oh yeah.

I go to the conferences for the beers, the
beers and like, and, and meeting people.

So definitely if you see me on out,
out, out, out somewhere, come up and

let's have a beer and let's hang out.

Doug: All right, man.

Well, we'll catch up soon.

And thanks again.

Thanks

Kyle: so much, man.

Doug: Thanks a lot to Kyle.

And as we mentioned, you can go
follow him in various places.

I'll link up in the description
and I encourage folks to check out

internet marketing gold for sure.

Page optimizer pro, if you need a tool
to help you optimize the on page of your

sites or your client sites, of course.

One last thing, I don't ask for it all
the time, but if you dig the show, if

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So thanks a lot.