Ranking Revolution

Doug: In this episode, I talked to Nick Leroy about getting started in SEO, learning SEO, starting his agency and his offer of a fractional SEO director. It's the first part of our discussion. So be sure to check out part two, where we focus on using KPIs or key performance indicators to get results. But more importantly, to demonstrate the results you're getting for your clients.
How's it going out there? I'm Doug Cunnington. Welcome to the Ranking Revolution podcast, your go to source for strategies and ideas for SEO, organic growth, and online business. Today I'm chatting with Nick Leroy. He is a freelance SEO consultant and a newsletter author in St.
Paul, Minnesota. He specializes in SEO consulting, audits and SEO advising through his company, Nick LaRoy Consulting. He's also the author of SEO for lunch newsletter. I'm actually a subscriber of that and the owner of the boutique job board, seojobs. com. Today, we're going to cover a couple topics. We're going to talk about his start in SEO and how he's worked in an agency.
And then. Worked as a solo kind of shop and he has a specific offer around fractional SEO director. So that's a cool thing we're going to get into. And we'll also talk about sort of how he presents some of these offers to clients. And that is around KPIs, key performance indicators. Defining, executing, measuring, communicating.
This is a lot of project management stuff that I found very sexy back in the day. And it reminds me of my old consulting job. So Nick, welcome to the show. How's it going today?
Nick: Yeah. Thank you so much, Doug, for having me. I'm very excited to talk about all these things.
Doug: So how'd you get your start in SEO?
You've been doing this for a lot of years and there's been different iterations of, things that you've worked on. So what was the very beginning?
Nick: I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I am rolling into my 15th year now as an SEO. And I literally closed my eyes and I remember walking in to my very first SEO job.
But before we even start on that, how did I get into it? So I graduated college in that 2008, 2009 era where no jobs were available. You know, I've joked about this. People always told me C's get you degrees, but what nobody did tell me was C's don't get you jobs. So in a world where not a whole lot of people were hiring, the second that I'd show a resume that had like a 2.
7 GPA, I literally had an individual, I'll never forget this, hand back the resume despite having a lot of like really good beginning conversations and just say, I'm sorry, I can't continue to talk to you. So it turned into very quickly not be able to go to these like career fairs. It turned into who did I know, which I was fortunate.
I had a family friend who had a friend who knew somebody that owned a web development business. And what they had done is they had through that vine said, we're looking for a project manager. And at this point I figured I'm game for anything. Like I was fully aware that my GPA was hurting me. I needed a job and I went in and the first thing he told me during this interview was Yeah, last week I filled that job, she starts next week and I'm like, great.
I got this nice little pity interview But with that let's get that. Let's get our app at right and we talk and you know, he's a nice guy Also, he's like nick. What do you know about seo? And at that point the only thing I had known so back in like 2008 2009 I remember a marketing book that specifically had stated like optimizing for like search engines and they basically the only level of detail they went into was This idea of tricking the engines, which was like labeled to quote unquote black hat, you know, and then doing things that follow the rules.
So me not yet building any sort of tact or filter. I was like, black hat, SEO is all about ranking porn and white hat is everybody else. And he kind of chuckled. And ultimately what that led to was he called me up and he was like, I'm sick of sending my finished web projects to other SEO companies. I want to try to retain some of that revenue opportunity.
You know, it's nobody here knows it I know it's an opportunity, but I don't really want to like pay well. So here's what i'm gonna do I'm gonna offer you 18 an hour on a six month contract with no benefits And I was just ecstatic like it was, you know, the first opportunity to kind of prove myself. So Colin offered me the job.
I walked in and I just remembered to this day to Logging in and being like your guys's website is made of flash And that was like one of the first things I had learned. And I remember going to my boss and telling him like, for my job to exist and to provide any sort of value, we need to move our website off of flash.
And again, that was 15 years ago. And ever since then, you know, it's been a journey of trying to be better a little bit day after day. And now I'm going on about my fifth year of solo consulting. Okay. I don't know if it's a long story, but it's kind of a fun one.
Doug: It sets the stage perfectly. I mean, my first job, my GPA wasn't high enough to get a interview or I got a couple of interviews, but I never landed a job and it was through a friend and a referral and I ended up at a very good company, but I couldn't have, I couldn't walk in the front door.
I had to get the introduction through the side there. And then, then once you get the first one, you know, under your belt. Then they can rely on whatever some of your results other references and all that kind of stuff But I think that's kind of a standard way What was your degree in by the way?
Nick: Yeah, so I it's a management information systems degree But I went to a local college here in Minnesota that for whatever reason they wanted to just rebrand it So officially my degree reads business computer information systems that they no longer offer at that college anymore.
Doug: Okay. Gotcha. Yeah. I remember those kind of, it's like part technical part management and business, right? Okay.
Nick: That's exactly how it was. I was never good enough to like really code, but I realized that a marketing degree was what three quarters of the school was already there for. So I knew that I couldn't just get a marketing degree.
Doug: For about 10 years, it sounds like you worked at you know, various marketing agencies. Can you talk about your education, especially early on when I suspect you were reading other websites and just like scouring the internet for whatever information you could get? But how'd that go, especially as you navigated through your, you know, decade long career working for other folks?
Nick: Yeah, you really nailed it. It truly was scouring the internet. I think one of the best things that we have today is there's so many resources, so many playbooks, so many SOPs that are created on like, quote unquote, how to do SEO. And very little of that existed back when I started. In fact, I was in some of the old, like SEO chat rooms, you know, really trying to learn, you know, whiteboard Friday, you know, was back then and I couldn't wait for random publishes on Fridays and also another fun story when I had started that very first job, I didn't have a whole lot of money to my name.
I remember going to Barnes and Noble and they had like an SEO book for dummies. And I actually took the book and people are familiar with like Barnes and Noles They normally have like little reading sections that you're supposed to buy a coffee and the book you bought and read it I sat down and read like 300 pages put it back on the shelf.
It like went back to work but really I think what that's just a testament to was I was hungry I was excited and what I loved most about seo on day one and still true today is We still don't know a hundred percent what it takes to win. And it's a competition. Like if you're not one, I mean, you're last and it's just been day in and day out.
I mean, we all know that there's some big names that, started out, when I started, you know, Aaron wall and Ray Hoffman and, a couple of these other names that, aren't quite as big today, they kind of gone their own direction, but, you know, it's just all these individuals that were kind enough to share their information.
I took a little nugget here and there, did a lot of testing, a lot of learning, a lot of failure, and it's just amazing what you can learn by continuously getting back on that horse and moving forward.
Doug: Did you have any specific mentors or anything? Especially in the SEO space. I'm sure you were working under, uh, I guess, marketing teams and stuff like that, uh, perhaps, but yeah.
Was there anyone who was a few years ahead of you that really was like, all right, like we're working on this together and kind of helped you out when you were getting rolling? So I
Nick: think that's what I always wanted, but I tend to find myself in positions where, you know, for instance, that very first job I was.
One, I was the only one there that knew anything about SEO. So I was the smartest guy in the room and the dumbest guy in the room. And that was actually the reason why I had left that job. And I found an agency that had about like 30 SEOs on the team. And I was very fortunate and got the validation that I was hoping to get.
Uh, do I actually know what I know? Or was I just the smartest guy in one room, you know, of one. And very quickly found out that I did know my stuff. And I think I became a little bit more of a mentor to other people. So, you know, I, I can easily drop a couple of names just from like the internet who, you know, inspired me and gave me a little nuggets here and there.
But I think that's the one thing that I do miss and I get very jealous of today. Is people do have formal mentors and I never quite had that. It was always just a little piecemeal and trying to grow one day at a time.
Doug: So you have been working for yourself for about five years. Can you talk about the decision to pull the trigger and the transition?
Nick: Yeah, so this is kind of a fun story now, definitely not fun then, but when, so I had been in a position unfortunately where I had been fired from my job and it really brought to light like just some of the turmoil's of things that I really enjoyed working for other people, but almost more importantly things that I didn't do.
And I've always known that like I never played the political game very well. I didn't enjoy it. You know, playing the games and doing what it took, the 3 percent raises. And I just was never good at that. So I took another job, you know, and again, I was just kind of trying to figure things out. And COVID came around and I actually got laid off again, my position and my entire team was eliminated due to COVID.
And at that point, I did a couple interviews. I really wasn't feeling it. It really felt like I was just kind of going through the motions. And it just kind of dawned on me that I think this is the time where I need to invest in myself and really allow myself to, you know, show off kind of like everything that I've learned, prove my value.
And I had a huge fire in me of just showing kind of people in general, like you made a mistake or, you know, I always kind of knew I had the value and the way that I wanted to approach things is a feasible way to run a business.
Doug: Did anyone in your, whatever, circle of friends or your peer group professionally, or your, even your family, did they have any hesitation or were they a little scared of you going out on your own?
And I, I was laid off in 2015 and my wife, hell, I've been doing this for, you know, I've been working for myself for a while, but she's still not quite confident that I have my shit put together. Funny enough. But, uh, yeah, anyway, feel free to share however much you want to know. It's a struggle for many folks out there.
Nick: No, you know, and I, I actually, I like being really transparent and I think that's part of the reason. And we'll talk later about, you know, the website that I run seojobs. com is, you know, we don't talk about, you know, getting fired or laid off because it's really uncomfortable and we tend to take it as it's an us issue and nothing else.
So. I try to be transparent. And part of that, whether it be working for somebody else or working for your own self, as you know, is, you know, Some days you feel like you've got it all figured out and you're like, I'm going to do this forever. Like, just bring it on. And there are some days, and I'm sure you feel this way too, it's like, I would really love to have a 60, 000 job right now that I don't have to think anything more than 9 to 5 and punch in and punch out.
But to answer your question directly, going back to my story about being laid off during COVID, you know, I went through some of these interviews. And I'd get off and, you know, talk to my wife and be like, wow, you know, this really sucked. It was like the fifth round of the interview. They said there's three more to go.
You know, they're still not talking about salary or responsibilities and I'm just exhausted. And I told her, I was like, I think I got to do this. It just, it really doesn't feel like I have a lot to lose at this point. And I always figured it could be a double edged sword, but had I gone out on my own and failed, I thought it would actually allow me to go back and be a better employee because all the things that I wanted to push and do that I've been told were wrong or bad, we're not going to leave my system until I try to do it my way.
So all that being said, my wife and I finally got to the point where we kind of said, wow, it's COVID 19 like this is the worst time to start your business ever. But how about this, like, let's give ourselves, I can't remember if it was three months or six months, but it was a small window, it was like, let's give you this window right now, if you can make, or generate enough revenue to make up what we would have otherwise earned through my salary, Like, great.
We'll do another six months. And if not, then again, maybe it'll help you recharge. We can go back and work for somebody else. And hopefully we're not in a crazy amount of debt. So my wife since day one was not exactly happy about it. You know, without going too deep into it, you know, she has a history growing up.
Her father was an entrepreneur. He owned his own small company. And she's experienced the highs of the highs of money is good and the lows of the lows of money is not And she always had appreciated the consistency of kind of a nine to five job So all that said I was very fortunate that when I went out on my own i've never been so driven in my entire life laser focused Those first six months went by quick I very quickly made my salary back probably within that entire six months, you know a year's salary You And things have just, I've never looked back since.
It's the happiest I've been, the most rewarding that my work has ever been. I pick who I work with and I have great relationships with my clients. And most importantly, I don't miss much, if any of my kids events, which in that previous 10 year agency career, I missed all sorts of stuff.
Doug: That's awesome. And I mean, I know it's, it's really hard to do.
There's a couple of pieces I want to highlight here and I want to go back a little bit. Like you've had a newsletter for several years, right? Like a lot of years. Had you earned money on your own as a side hustle like out there? So you had the confidence to know like, Hey, I can earn some serious cash.
With my skills. Yeah,
Nick: so I I absolutely like I feel like this is like the the one like warning label I have to put out there when I talk about my freelance journey Is as I mentioned before starting since day one I was so hungry to learn about seo and I was so passionate and I have this personality like of like addiction.
It's like as soon as you get interested in someone I only go a hundred percent or zero percent. So Starting from day one like I talked about going to barnes and noble But it was like once I realized maybe six months into this job. It's like seo is great. I can do this for clients Oh, but now amazon might you know pay me if I have an affiliate site So I'd go home and for the longest time I had created tons of affiliate sites.
You know, I had an auto insurance lead generation site. You know, it was all these opportunities to learn and grow and even test, you know, a lot of what would be deemed not appropriate or not risk worthy tactics for clients, but you would get to learn. And it was just such a great opportunity to learn what actually works.
You know, and the only risk of it was, okay, Nick's site gets toasted. I'm not putting somebody else's business out, but I mean, all of that played a significant role. And, you know, and I started, I've always had a freelance client on the side because up until, you know, going out on my own, I would say like, I was probably on the bottom end of the market, you know, within a reasonable pay range, so it always felt like I needed to make a little bit extra.
Uh, So by the time I went out on my own, I had already had the SEO for lunch newsletter that had been ran for like five years at that point, built a following. Like I had written on various search engine, you know, blogs and podcasts. So I was very fortunate that 10 years later, once I went out on my own, I felt like I was at a great situation where I had given a lot to people and never asked for anything in return.
So I literally got to turn on my computer on day one. And send out emails and say, not that I'm collecting IOUs, but just more of like, Hey, I know all of you, you own your businesses. Give me some feedback, give me some tips, and if you have any work or know anybody who needs work, like, please just consider me.
And a lot of my work, even to today comes through referrals. And it's because of that goodwill that I had kind of inadvertently built through 10 years of being curious and wanting to grow day in and day out. Perfect.
Doug: The other thing is you, you mentioned, you know, you basically earn a year's worth of salary in six months working for yourself.
One observation that I've had, not only exactly what you said, where you're getting like two, 3 percent raises, or like you're working so hard for a full year 3 percent bonus, and I'm like, what this says, this is crazy. It doesn't even make sense. Like you're better off, like just getting a part time job somewhere else versus putting in, you know, weekend hours and missing your family's events or whatever.
But the whole point here is when you remove the waste of like a corporation where there's like, whatever. meaningless meetings. You're just wasting time. There's like meetings to meet about other meetings. Or if you want to change a process in a minor way, there's like four meetings about it and all this approval.
So you just remove all that waste. And I'm no pure question, but like any thoughts around. Just like you get rid of like the whole corporate structure and then you could work four hours a day and get twice as much done. So what do you think, Nick?
Nick: Yeah. So I kind of have two things that popped my mind. And the thing that's great is like when you're in a freelance world, you know, the goal is not to trade your time for money, but that's just kind of the reality of being service based.
So when I continue to get invited to my client meetings, and it is to talk about the next three sets of meetings. Instead of it being just kind of like, I need to burn a couple hours of my day. Like I'm earning the same amount of money sitting in those meetings. Then I am like pushing a strategy and I'm very like aggressive and telling my clients, like, I'm happy to join you, but you're going to pay for my time.
So I make money. For basically being in these meetings and being productive, but, you know, I just try to encourage as much productivity as humanly possible. The other thing that I'll say is one of the biggest traps that I fell into, and I think a lot of freelancers do when they first start out or, you know, whether you start your agency is you become kind of a nine to five freelancer.
We all get so used to sitting at our desk from nine to five or seven to four, or whatever your normal day is. That you find yourself just, like, billing time. And the first time I pulled myself away from the computer to, like, go grocery shopping at 1 o'clock on Tuesdays with all the retired folks. Like, that was when it clicked, I was just like, this is amazing, like, I no longer have to just like, find stuff to do.
So now I try to, you know, I kind of joke with people, it's like, if you see me online, more or less I'm making money. If you don't see me online, that's because I'm not making money. And that allows me to, you know, really control my calendar. And it's just an amazing feeling. And I will say, this is a little bit of my snarkiness coming out.
But. Part of the reason I don't think I could ever go back to working for somebody else is I can't even fathom the idea of asking somebody for permission to like go on vacation or to leave an hour early or to go to the dentist and that's just all part of the nine to five.
Doug: I've gotten into naps recently, and they're great.
I mean, I try to get enough sleep. They're great and
Nick: dangerous at the same time.
Doug: You know, you get enough sleep at night, you don't need to take a nap. But sometimes you feel a little tired, you want to take a nap. So yeah, I mean, those are the kind of things I would have to get permission to do. To do as well.
And I can't imagine it either. So, okay. The power
Nick: of being able to, if you want to, I will say that I just, uh, build off of that for one second. I will say is, you know, a lot of the internet you get stuck into, like if you're an entrepreneur, it's like buy your time back, get as much time. And I got stuck into that where it's like, it felt like I optimized really well.
And then I wasn't being productive with that time back. I found myself taking daily naps or I play video games or something. It's like. This is not what they mean by like buying your time back. So, you know, there, there's a learning opportunity for all of that.
Doug: Although, I mean, this is going to take us way off topic, Nick, but I, I'm working on a book with, uh, a podcast co host of mine on laziness, and I would argue getting enough rest and taking naps is probably one of the most productive things.
You could do, although it depends on how you measure productivity. So
Nick: I think happiness is a factor too. One thing, and I'm going to continue to take us off the D rail, but I get quite a few people that reach out, you know, wanting to test the boundaries of freelancing and, you know, they get caught up. I want to make this much, or I want to never talk to a boss again, or I want to own my schedule.
And the very first thing that I always recommend, or I always ask them, it's like, why do you want to do this? And it's amazing how many people like don't have the answer and that's fine. Like your goals can change. I think, especially if you're freelance, like you, that's one of the luxuries is your goals can change and they can be pretty flexible, but again, what you need to do to maximize your money is it going to be a lot different than like, I need to maximize my time and it's just completely different strategies to get there.
So that's just one thing that I continue to push people. And if your goal is like minimal stress. And I want to be able to take a nap and like, I can go to the grocery store at one o'clock. Like that's fantastic. You might trade off a little bit of earnings or you might work at some oddball times. But again, it's, it's all a trade off.
One is not right or wrong, but I think that those are, that's the fun part. It's up to you versus when you're hired, you're executing for somebody else's dream and plan.
Doug: Well said, well said. So let's shift and talk about the fractional SEO director, uh, the, I guess the, the labeling and the offer. And I I've seen this around a little bit more, so I know it's becoming a bit more popular.
So can you talk about your offer and how you shape this and who, you know, who you're targeting with that director role?
Nick: Yeah, so I think this is super interesting and it's a very kind of niche offering But it's this idea of I tend to work with enterprise level clients. They have either SEO resources in house whether it be an actual SEO team, an editorial team, account, you know, a technical team, you know with web development And a lot of times, they don't need somebody to come in and like, go into the back end of their site and make changes.
In fact, with the larger the website, the odds are that you're not going to be able to do that. What they do need is they need someone to come in and be an advocate for the channel, help build a strategy, sell it to the C suite, and then make sure that people get the heck out of their own way so that you can execute it.
And then it goes full circle after you execute it. How do you measure it? Then how do you bring it back to the team and communicate that you all did xyz and here is the value of abc Bring it back to your leadership double down and just go back full circle And to me a fractional director of seo is just that like because i'm not always In the code or writing the content It's allowing me to come in and truly give direction to a company that has the resources to get things done, but they just maybe don't have the knowledge.
And the know how to make it all work. So that's really how I define a fractional director SEO. And when I work with my clients, that's kind of the role that I'm in. Do
Doug: the clients understand what the role is and what the role isn't and the scope? of what's in scope and out of scope?
Nick: Yes. I would say the answer is yes, no, and always learning.
And the reason that I say that is one of the benefits of being a freelance consultant is I don't need 20 clients. Like maybe an agency does to quote unquote, survive and thrive. I need three, four, maybe five. So when I jump on the call, I'm interviewing them just as much as they are me. And if somebody comes on the call and says.
We have no resources. We have no money, you know, we need someone to come in and optimize everything and create our content and basically do all the work my Response to them is basically my time is too expensive I don't see a way how I can provide a positive roi for you versus if they come to me and say You know, we have a content team.
We've been blogging for three years. It's not doing anything. Our technical, you know, is a mess and that's because everybody just kind of does whatever they need to do to Frankenstein the site. So it works. You know, I bring a lot of just like, do you understand why we should do it this way? And are we making sure that mom is talking to dad and all the kids are getting along and you have someone just continuing to champion it.
So I make it very clear that, for me, it's very much a results oriented role. It's not about tracking every single hour, making sure that you're in every single call, and that you have X amount of deliverables. It's purely about how are we lifting your organic presence. And we're making sure that we're building a system that can scale well beyond any one person.
And then that tends to either resonate really well, or on the other end it's actually kind of a blessing because people are like, Nope, I need a hundred articles. And it's like, great! Let me refer to you to someone else. Yeah,
Doug: perfect. And we're going to cover in the second part, we're going to cover the, the KPIs and how really the project management portion of it, including the communication and measurement and feedback loop and all that.
So we'll cover that in a second. I'm curious how long an engagement typically lasts or what is the ideal that you're looking for in the sweet spot?
Nick: Yeah, I've been very fortunate. So as I mentioned earlier, I'm going into my fifth year now. And I would say that average retainers for me are going three plus years at this point.
And I see a lot of opportunity to continue. I would say sometimes when I lose clients, it's kind of a backhanded compliment because what they do is they say, well, we've bought into this. You've helped us build a process. Now we're going to take it in house. So it's like, we don't necessarily need you anymore, which is a bummer for me.
But ultimately, if there's a way where you ever have to divorce at the end of an engagement, and not having it be performance related, but to the point where it's like, they truly bought in, they see the value, and they're gonna double down and bring it in house, I mean, you can only be so upset about that, but to answer your question directly, it's like, Uh, one of the benefits is as long as I help them continue to make more money than they are paying me and spending very rarely is a C suite ever going to make a move.
Doug: Yeah, they can get blamed for something if something happens when you leave. I wonder, is there a way to create an offer around like the goal of them taking it in house?
Nick: Yeah, I think there's definitely an opportunity. I will say when I have these type of conversations, because I'm intentionally maybe like one step away from being kind of like a full time team member, I do always recognize that there's the ability to stomp on the gas pedal a little bit more.
And what I mean by that is I'll help build, like, I'm a big fan of 80, 20. And my goal is to get to 80 percent efficiency, 80 percent growth as fast as humanly possible. But that definitely move, like it goes away from perfection. And so there's a lot of meat left on the bone. And I think when you get to that point, that's the difference between having like a fractional director, somebody that's there part time versus somebody who can eat and, you know, breathe your, your business.
in a nine to five role. So I think there's a lot of opportunity. I think just the biggest opportunity is how not all companies are willing to invest to bring all the resources in house day one. But it certainly can involve
Doug: and coming towards the end of this line of questioning, is there sort of an ideal team size that exists on the client side so that you know that they have enough resources to do the work so you don't have to do all of it?
And I'm sure it varies depending on the engagement. But how does that look for you?
Nick: Again, I think the answer, I know we all hate saying it, it really does depend because the first thing that I will always ask the client is like, what are your goals? Similar to what we talked about with like the freelancing, it's like, what are you trying to do?
And I have, I mean, the first one that everybody says, and we might as well just get it out there. It's like, they want to make more money. It makes sense. They want to be less reliant on, on paid ads, but the team that's required to start up. Doesn't have to be exceptionally large if you've never invested in SEO.
So if you're kind of looking at maybe like a lights on, we want to start building some foundations. We want to see directional growth. You know, I kind of have an idea of what it will take and I'll explain that to them. If they are in an exceptionally competitive space, And they don't have any resources.
I'll give them kind of an idea of like, this is the quantity of content. This is the level of optimization and technical updates you'll need on your site. And it's part of that interview process because if you're not willing to invest at the appropriate level, you're not going to be able to find success.
And one thing that my buddy Eli Schwartz and I always like to joke about is it seems like it's really rare these days to tell people to their face that want to give you money. That SEO might not be the best solution for them. Because some people, because unlike paid search, SEO is rarely a situation where they can write a check and then be like hands off.
So it's our job to educate them. And if I hear a lot of no's, we can't do this red tape. My response might be you guys, I realized paid search only gets more expensive. But that might be the direction that you guys need to be at for right now. So I realized that was a very roundabout answer to answer your question, but hopefully that makes sense.
Doug: Yeah. Perfect. Perfect sense.
Thanks for checking out this episode and thanks to Nick Leroy for sharing his story. If you liked it, be sure to check out part two about KPIs and working with clients. Nick also has a newsletter called SEO for lunch and a job board called seojobs. com great name. You don't have to guess what, what's on there.
And we'll put links for that stuff. If you want to connect with Nick and I'm pretty sure we have his LinkedIn profile as well. So you could check it out and connect with them there. And by the way, if you dig the show, make sure you're subscribed to wherever you're consuming this. It does help out a lot and leave a review that helps out too.
It's kind of an ego boost like to see those reviews out there. So we'll catch you on the next episode.