Ranking Revolution

Doug: Welcome to the ranking revolution
podcast, your go to source for strategies

and ideas for SEO, organic growth,
content creation, and online business.

I'm Doug Cunnington, your host.

In this episode, I'll tell
you my thoughts on hiring.

They work for me, but they
may not work for everyone.

So take the good stuff that
you like and make it your own.

Probably disagree with some
points, which is totally fine.

So you could just disregard those,
but don't throw out everything.

Cause I'm sure you'll be
able to get some good ideas.

I'm going to go over my
approach for a lean team.

I'm going to talk about using trial
jobs over interviewing, and I will

give you some tips on these trial jobs.

I'll briefly mention hiring in stages.

I'll let you know about some common
pitfalls and mistakes that people

make when they hire, especially
early on and where to find people.

And one of them is kind of unexpected.

And I actually didn't even
think of it myself until.

It happened to me.

So I'll let you know what that is.

It sounds mysterious the
way I just described it.

So quick note, I'm thinking
of smaller teams here.

So even solopreneurs, or if your
team is currently under say like

four or five people, however,
you can still use these ideas and

tips to help your managers learn.

So if you already have a bigger team,
if you have 10 or 12 or 20 people

and you're doing all the HR stuff.

You can actually train your team
to hire and take on some of the HR

work and get that off your plate.

And if you're an entrepreneur
that, uh, likes to work online

and maybe you identify with some
of my background and the way, I

like to approach online business.

You actually don't like
the HR work very much.

You probably focus on some of the
more technical aspects and the HR part

kind of sucks and as your business
grows, then you end up doing more HR

stuff instead of the core business.

So if you could train your team to do
some of the HR work and hire people.

Then you have more free time before
we get to the meat of the episode.

Please make sure you're subscribed to
the show, wherever you're consuming this.

And if you like it, please leave a review.

It really helps out to spread the word.

And basically if I, you know, run across
a podcast, I'll take a quick look at the

reviews to see if I'm interested or not.

And it looks good to have
more stars in your review.

So anyway, I appreciate that.

Uh, second quick note, this is a reminder
to myself, the last solo episode that

I did, I was like, Oh, you know what?

I'm going to, I'm going to actually,
you know, write a little bit more

and it ended up being way, way longer
than I intended, like 30 minutes.

I want these smaller episodes
to be actually smaller and

be around 10 minutes or so.

Sometimes they're shorter, but
I really want them to be tight.

So I'll stop rambling now,
stick to the fucking point.

Okay.

My lean team approach.

I have a small team
and I like it that way.

Currently I have two virtual assistants
and they just do a few things for me.

Overall, it's less stress
and it keeps the costs low.

I can be flexible and grow fast
if I need to, though, I'm not in

this stage where I'm trying to grow
the team or anything like that.

And I can actually grow fast
because I have training and

job aides in very good shape.

They've been iterated upon and
I know they can stand alone.

So if I needed to hire a team of
writers, I could probably hire five

or six writers within like two weeks
or so and have a pretty good team

within just a few hours of, you know,
posting a job, working through some of

the, um, applicants that come through.

So once you have things in good
shape, you can grow up really fast.

I can also hire for specialized skills.

So let's say I need some work done
for my website, which is WordPress.

I can hire a developer that specializes
in whatever I need, whether it's like

site speed, or maybe I want to get rid
of a few plugins and sort of consolidate

that code in sort of my core install.

I can do that.

I could just hire someone that does that.

Of course, the obvious.

Issue with a small team.

You literally can't do as much work.

So if you're growing and you're
thinking of scaling and you actually

need a bigger team to do all the
work, you should check out episode 29

about scaling and growing your team.

This is where I actually
talk about growing your team.

Pretty big hiring also means that you
will have to let go of some of the work.

So for all the control freaks out there,
you'll need to let go of the control.

So you won't have the same amount
of oversight and control over the

work, at least not in the same way.

So it might be an issue for your business.

If your deliverables need you
specifically to do the work, that said,

it may not be the best business model.

If you are the one doing everything
all the time and it solely relies

on you to do the work, but overall,
letting go is a good thing.

Most of the time, and you may
have a chance to grow the business

and earn more if you're able
to delegate some of the work,

The second main area and maybe
the biggest point of this episode

is the trial jobs, which I prefer
over a long interviewing process.

And I definitely favor hiring for
trial jobs, which are paid by the way,

so that's sort of fair for everyone.

And it lets the freelancer or
potential full time employee

know that you value their work.

You're not trying to
get free work from them.

And interviewing is a problem because some
people are really good at interviewing,

but they're actually bad at their job.

Just quick example, quick
tangent back in the day.

I don't think I was a very good
interviewee, especially right out of

college, but now that I've been podcasting
for several years and creating content in.

Refining and getting better at my
communication skills and storytelling.

I'm pretty sure I should be able to
interview much better now than I used to.

That doesn't mean I'm good at my job,
by the way, I don't want to set any

weird expectations out there, but, but
basically someone would probably find

me to be a qualified candidate for a
lot more things because I could tell

a story Lock in for the questions that
they're asking and then answer their

question and get to the point where in
the past, maybe I didn't have confidence.

Maybe my story is rambled.

Maybe I didn't do a good job just
overall in the interview process.

That said, I did come from a.

Corporate background and did help grow
a specific team from like, I think we

had about 15 in the beginning to over
about a hundred full time employees.

And I handled a huge load of the
screening, looking through the resumes,

interviewing, training, and onboarding.

So big, time suck for the interviewing
process and quick note, automatic,

the parent company of WordPress
hires with trial jobs, at least I'm

pretty sure I heard that on the Tim.

Ferris podcast with Matt Mullenweg, and
he's been on the show a few times, but I

think they hire for a few trial jobs that
way they really understand how the person

can work within the teams at WordPress.

So a couple pros and cons of
the long interviewing process.

So pros are you actually have a
comprehensive candidate assessment.

So you're looking through
a bunch of resumes.

You get to ask a bunch of questions.

There's probably multiple interviews,
so you can interview your candidates

and then whittle it down and go a
little bit deeper and you can kind of

understand the cultural fit of the.

Potential teammate because you're
spending more time just chatting and

understanding the communication style.

The cons are it's time consuming.

It costs a lot of money and.

Depending on who you're interviewing,
you can kind of get interview

fatigue, both you specifically and
the people that you're working with.

The other thing is like, if you have
interviewed for jobs in the past and

you've been strung along and you've
done like two to five interviews, you

spent all this time and you thought
you had a really good connection and

then boom, it's gone, it's kind of sad.

I mean, you can't, as a hiring
manager, you can't think of everyone

that might get their feelings hurt.

Cause that would, that would be
devastating, but basically you

can actually get some fatigue
of interviewing all the folks.

There's some huge advantages
for using trial jobs.

Number one, you don't rely on
someone's storytelling ability

or their interviewing skills.

You actually rely on their
real world skills and actually

what they could deliver.

And because of that.

When you hire someone for a
trial job, then you know if

they can actually do that job.

It's very simple.

It's very straightforward.

You can do this much faster as well.

And because you're able to hire, And
get some work, a small project done.

You can hire a few people at the same
time and get them to do different jobs.

But then you have a
head to head comparison.

The other thing is you really
reduce the risk of a hiring mistake.

Now, if you're just hiring for a
freelance job, it may not be as big of

a deal, but you could take these ideas
to hire full time employees as well.

And that can be expensive.

So.

If you're hiring someone full
time, there's a lot more invested

and it's extremely expensive if
you hire the wrong person and you

have to go through this process.

But if you're just hiring for a trial
job, you could actually get a few people

working in parallel and, you know, maybe
you find that two of them are great

and you're going to hire more people
because they're doing such a great job.

Some of the issues with the trial jobs
is it can be a little bit difficult to to

manage if you are Hiring a few people at
the same time So you don't have to hire

them in parallel but you can if you want
to it makes it a little bit easier to if

you hire them in parallel because then
you have The work done all at the same

time and you're not stringing someone
along They're probably looking for other

jobs out there as well Couple key things
for best practices around trial jobs.

So you want this to go pretty smoothly.

So number one, fair compensation.

You have to figure out what the fair
compensation is for your role and what

works for your, what Cashflow and bottom
line and of course the geography of

where the person is working sometimes
with geo arbitrage You really can

take advantage of that and pay a very
good salary for that person But it's

actually pretty economical for you.

So keep all that stuff in mind.

So fair compensation is big and There
might be some negotiation, but it overall

like if you pay something fair, they're
gonna be happy with it You'll be happy

with it Second big thing have very clear
objectives and very clear deliverables.

And hopefully you have this clear and
you should make sure they understand

exactly what the deliverables are.

If you have an example, that's one of
the best ways or multiple examples.

It's very easy to see what you need.

If they can see.

An example.

And then finally, if you are hiring
multiple people, you definitely

need effective evaluation criteria.

So figure out if you need sort
of a checklist, if you need

some sort of a scoring system.

And there should be
multiple categories on this.

Evaluation, and it should be very
easy to compare the different

people that you're hiring.

So it's very easy to understand who
should be hired and you could just create

a spreadsheet with a few tabs, and then
you're able to do that pretty easily.

There are some sort of softer
skills, which we'll get into.

And that may be something
that's not obvious for you to

evaluate, but it's very important.

Let's get into the pitfalls
and how to avoid them.

So here's some things to avoid.

You are going to assume that you're going
to find the right person right away.

That might not be the case.

In fact, I think it's probably a good idea
to assume about a 25 percent success rate.

So if you want to hire one person,
you might need to go through like four

trial jobs and four separate people.

To find the right one.

It could be much worse than that.

It could be much better than that, but
just assume there's some waste in the

system and you're not going to find
the right person on the first try.

It does happen, but it's rare.

Number two is overlooking the importance
of an air quotes like soft skills.

So in my case.

I think the communication style
and someone being effective in

the format that you need is one
of the most important things.

You can also change this
around depending on the role.

So if you need to hire an account
manager, obviously their client

relations and very specifically their
soft skills, as far as communicating.

Are very, very important if you're hiring
a writer or a developer, their, uh, sort

of soft skills don't matter as much.

It might be mostly text based and
then that's where the communication

style and format is very important.

The thing is, if you hire someone
for a trial job, you're going to

be able to see how that works.

And they're probably going to have
questions, which is normal, and

you're going to have feedback for
them and they're going to have

feedback for you potentially.

So you can see how that
communication goes.

And that might be one of the most
important things, because if you want

to expand their role and give them
more work as they get more skills,

then you're going to need to give them.

A lot more feedback, you're going to need
to get them to ask questions when things

aren't clear and that sort of thing.

The third area is to provide very
clear job descriptions and job aids.

And this is another area I went into
more detail with episode 29, but

essentially if you can provide a job
aid, that's great, but you really want

to have a few people go through the job
aid to ask questions so that you can.

improve and clarify areas that are
confusing or generally not clear when

people ask questions, you can make sure
that you include those answers to make

any confusing areas as clear as possible.

The last one here that we'll note,
and there's obviously other mistakes

and pitfalls, but One issue is you're
not letting people go fast enough.

So hire for the trial job and if something
goes weird and you're like, this is

obviously not going to be a good fit.

Just let the people go
as soon as possible.

And if it doesn't work out like
75 percent of the time, like

I mentioned, then it's okay.

Like it's not going to work out for
everyone and you just need to let them go.

Don't think like that.

Hey, they're going to
do better and better.

It's like find the right person
and then keep moving forward.

Or if the person clearly is not going to
work out, just let them go say, Hey, um,

it doesn't look like it's a good fit.

I'm really sorry.

You've paid them for the job.

So it's not like they were working for
free and you can move on with your life.

Here's a couple just bullet points
for avoiding those pitfalls.

Number one, just define the
communication style, the communication

format as clearly as possible.

So they understand, Hey, don't
send me a million emails.

We're working on WhatsApp or we're
working off of Trello or we're

working off of Basecamp or whatever.

Just make it very clear.

The communication channel, and that can
include the frequency of communication

from you to you, whatever you want.

You're the boss, right?

So you can define that however you
want, but just make sure it's clear.

Number two is balancing
speed with a thoroughness.

Of the whole hiring process.

So of course we want to hire
people and get them engaged and

find the right person as soon as
possible, but it does take time.

So even if you are hiring people for trial
jobs and you're hiring four at a time,

you need to let them finish the work.

You need to evaluate their work
accordingly, using the predefined

criteria that you thought about ahead
of time and then pick the right person.

So don't rush it.

And third is actually crafting
and creating detailed and

accurate job postings.

So these are the roles and
responsibilities of the

person that you want to hire.

By the way, you don't necessarily
want to give someone All the work,

all the roles and responsibilities
to do like on day one, I find it very

effective to layer on the work so
that someone doesn't get overwhelmed.

I remember back in the day,
one of my friends hired someone

and was like, ah, they sucked.

I gave him a whatever, a
five page checklist and they,

They did a bad job on it.

I'm like five pages.

That's way too much.

You just like sent them a list
of stuff and they like, probably

didn't understand most of it.

And you have to, you have to train them.

You have to let them gain the skills in
one area and then continue to layer it on.

So just a quick note on hiring in stages,
let's say things are going great, or

maybe you have outside investment and
you have the ability to hire 50 people.

If you try to hire 50 people in
a very short time, you're going

to run into all sorts of issues.

There's a lot of, uh, management
and communication, and there's a,

even company culture when you're
able to grow really fast, so

highly recommend hiring in stages.

So even if you have the ability
to hire 50 people, maybe you just

hire three and then you hire.

Six more.

And then you hire six more after that.

And you slowly grow from there.

You might be able to accelerate,
but as soon as you start adding more

people, the complexity just explodes.

It's not intuitive how complicated things
get when you start adding a lot of people.

As we wrap it up and I see I'm not
sticking to the 10 minutes that I

mentioned, but at least we're a little
bit shorter than the 30 minutes.

If you're starting from
scratch, you can go to Upwork.

That is a great place,
a great marketplace.

There's a lot of people.

There's a lot of different kinds of
freelancers that you could hire there.

You could almost hire them on a full time
basis and still work through the platform.

And as a hiring company, they
have great protections for you.

So you can.

Pretty much rest assured that
you're not going to get ripped off.

If you have any issues, you're going to
be able to go to Upwork and say, Hey,

I followed all the processes that I was
supposed to, this person didn't deliver.

I want a refund on this.

And I've done this multiple times.

I am pretty good with the details and
I did all the stuff I was supposed to.

Here's the sort of secret
thing that you may not realize.

If you have a network of other
people with online businesses,

these could be just peers.

These could be friends.

It could be folks you met at a networking
event, a conference, whatever, or

folks in your mastermind group, which
is how, you know, I was able to.

Figure this out, but they might
have people on their team that they

need to let go for some reason.

Maybe they're not growing anymore.

Maybe their cashflow needs have changed.

Maybe the roles have changed and they
just don't need that person anymore.

So let people know that you are
looking for someone to hire.

The other thing is even if they
don't have a person on their

team that they could pass along.

They know other people that work
online and they're, they're Able to,

you know, pass that along to you.

It's the, just the network effect here.

So here's the really
cool thing that happened.

I hired someone that was in the
hiring process with a friend

that was in my mastermind group.

He didn't hire the person.

She actually finished number two.

But she went through the whole
process, did trial jobs and everything.

So he really did all the work.

And basically I was able to hire
her without really screening her.

I think we hopped on a call
for about 30 minutes and I

was like, this is a good fit.

I trust my friend in the mastermind
group and I hired her and she worked

with me for, I think about a year or so.

And it worked out great.

And in fact, I probably would have hired
anyone who finished in the top five.

He was hiring someone full time, so
he actually put in a little bit more

time with the interview process,
and he may have gone through sort

of a placement service as well.

So, these are my thoughts on hiring
freelancers, full time employees,

and generally growing businesses.

If you have any comments or questions
or thoughts, you can shoot me an

email or you could leave a comment
over on the YouTube channel.

The email is feedback
at rankingrevolution.

com.

I'm Doug Cunnington, and I
would love it if you checked

out some of the other episodes.

There's some solo ones like
this, and there's some others.

That are interviews, usually two
parters where we cover different topics.

And those are typically two episodes.

So I break it up and most of these
are around 20 to 40 minutes or so.

So thanks a lot.

We'll catch you on the next episode.