Ranking Revolution

Welcome to the ranking revolution
podcast, your go-to source for strategies

and ideas for SEO, organic growth,
content creation and online business.

I'm your host, Doug Cunnington.

This is part two of my
interview with Spencer Hawes.

And the first part we talked about his
WordPress plugin called break logic.

And some of the details behind
creating it, using it, especially

if you're an agency owner.

So if you missed part one,
be sure to check it out.

Part two is I actually like
part two better than part one.

I'll be honest with you.

Yeah.

It's like picking a favorite child, but
I like part two, a little bit better.

We talk about the March.

Core algorithm update.

The impacts the implications of
manual penalties being handed out

versus algorithmically actually.

Ranking things and dealing with AI.

And just kind of the state
of the content site world.

So really juicy conversation.

I hope you enjoy it.

I'm going to send it to the interview now.

Doug: Okay.

Well, let's transition into
the March algorithm update.

And this was a big one.

You've been doing this for longer than me.

Is this the biggest update
that you've seen from Google?

Do you think?

Spencer: It's certainly one of
the, uh, biggest announcements

that they've ever made.

Right, Google made it very clear that
this is going to be a big update.

What, what I've seen or what we've
seen is that the helpful content

update was, was a much bigger update.

Um, so that maybe is the biggest one
that, that I've seen in a long time.

The March core update isn't quite
finished yet, so we don't know the

full impact, but it appears to have
taken a lot of sites that got hit

big with the helpful content update.

And just hit them even harder,
which is, uh, unfortunate.

And then of course, all wrapped into this,
we've got the spam update, the March spam

update, which did finish rolling out.

But the core update.

is still going on.

So we had these two updates
coming out at the same time.

Google throwing us a curveball
trying to figure out which update

is impacting your site or not.

But, um, certainly I would say the spam
update was the largest update appearing

to target artificial intelligence
content that we've ever seen.

And maybe that's not
saying a whole lot because.

Really, AI content hasn't become a
major problem for Google for more

than, you know, the last year or so.

But they've come out in a big way
with the, the spam update to target

AI content, including thousands of
manual penalties, sites getting fully

de indexed and a lot of other just
volatility in the SERPs as a result.

It's crazy

Doug: out there.

Well, let's lay the
stage a little bit too.

So did you have a lot of niche
and authority sites out there?

Like I mentioned before, you're
always creating new stuff, but if

you could share, I guess, just like
kind of what's your portfolio, Looks

like, or what it looked like as
much as you're comfortable sharing.

Spencer: Yeah, yeah, sure.

Yeah.

So my, my portfolio is pretty small.

I mainly focus on niche pursuits, uh,
com growing the organic traffic there.

And it's, it's done,
done really, really well.

You know, it did great, you know,
saw an increase in the helpful

content update and all that.

So I'm hitting record
traffic levels there.

Uh, and then I have one running
blog that I've had since 2012.

That really I haven't focused on much.

Uh, it was more of a passion project.

Uh, that site was hit with a helpful
content update, but it was never

really much of a money maker, right?

It made maybe a thousand
dollars a month or something.

And then I do have one other sort of
fun site that I created about a year

ago that really is only meant to get
traffic from alternative sources.

So it, I never tried to
rank in Google for it.

It's not really an SEO project.

Website, uh, and that's pretty
much it for my portfolio.

Yeah.

So, so it's really niche pursuits
is where I'm actively working.

Doug: Got it.

And then both the site that you
mentioned from 2012 and then

the one that you created last
year, those are private, right?

You, you haven't shared
those in any place, right?

Spencer: I have not shared those.

Correct.

Okay.

Smart.

Yeah.

Good.

And, and they're, I mean, they're not.

Yeah, they're not really making any
money significant amount of money.

So it's not like I'm not sharing them to
kind of hide my my niches or anything.

It's just, they're fun little projects
that aren't really meant to be.

Be big moneymakers at this point.

Doug: And I'll, I'll mention my stuff too.

So I started a new site maybe in like
2020 and that was the last new one

that I started and it was doing fine.

And then I sort of lost interest
and didn't do much with it.

I had a couple of writers working on it.

And then when AI started
getting a lot more.

impactful maybe a year ago, I realized
that the updates that I was doing and

a lot of the work that I was doing with
a real writer going through and going

through the SOPs and everything, it
wasn't really moving the needle at all.

So I was like, you know what,
I'm just going to pause.

I'm not super into it right now.

So, I think the site was impacted
a little bit by HCU in the

fall of 2023, but nothing huge.

Like you said, I was only making a
little bit of money and it was just kind

of a fun, fun thing on the side versus
a, a primary income source for me.

So, right.

All right.

You mentioned that one of the
sites was impacted by HCU.

Quick note.

I'm curious about the, the site
from, 2023 alternative sources.

So it was like most like social
traffic and interest and other

stuff like that, any other places?

Spencer: Primarily Facebook traffic
is, has been the strategy with the

long term goal of trying to get
into, uh, But like Google discover

haven't really moved beyond that.

We started with Facebook and, uh,
but then yeah, Google discover,

uh, you know, flipboard, we'll try
other things when I have the time,

but right now it's just Facebook.

Got it.

Doug: You mentioned HCU and you know,
the big impact from 2023 and I guess

HCU is now integrated into the, you
know, the quote core algorithm, right?

So no more HCU updates.

It's just in the algorithm.

A lot of people felt like HCU
wasn't really improving the SERPs.

What's your opinion?

Did you think there were
some good, some bad?

Was it generally a bad update?

Any generalization?

Spencer: You know, it's, it's
interesting to try and separate Myself

as a user of Google versus trying
to analyze Google as a professional.

Right.

So I'm trying to think like personally,
like, I don't know that I saw any

difference, like me just using Google.

I, you know, I didn't track, you know,
Oh, these kinds of websites are, are,

are showing up versus aren't showing up.

But as it's sort of more analyst diving
deep into the results, I do feel like.

I'm not a fan of the
changes that Google made.

Um, I think Google is really hit
the independent creator very hard.

Which is not the headline that they want.

You know, Google comes
after independent creators.

They, they try to build themselves
as supporting small businesses and

supporting, you know, the individual
blogger and creator, but what

they did with the helpful content
update hit the individual blogger.

The, I mean, I think about and see so
many quote unquote mommy bloggers or food

bloggers that they spend hours and hours
in their kitchen, taking pictures, making

recipes, and then blogging about it.

And they've been just wiped out.

And, uh, so, but instead now we see
all the large corporations, you know,

the New York times, the Forbes, the
CNETs of the world doing really well.

And so I'm not a fan of the
changes that, that Google has made.

Doug: I tend to agree.

And I had actually at least a couple
instances where neighbors, Non SEO folks,

just random civilian neighbors, right?

They were talking about how they had
trouble finding information and they

had to go back to Google a couple
of times and they couldn't figure

out what to search for exactly.

And so I explained a little
bit about the work that we do.

And I was like, that that's
really interesting information.

They're just normal people are like,
I don't really know how to find the

information I found it before, but now
I can't find it and I don't know why.

So.

You know, we know how to
go back and search a little

harder, but it happened twice.

And, you know, the other, I can't remember
who I was talking to, but they said that

their mom, that they're roughly our age.

So their mom is like in their sixties
and called them and said, Hey,

I, I like, I may have malware or
something on my phone or computer.

I'm getting all these Reddit results and
I don't understand, is Reddit a scam site?

Like they didn't know what it was.

And I know if you're on your phone, right.

And you go to Reddit, it's
Hey, install the app, which

is always the red flag, right?

I don't, I'm just trying
to find information.

I'm not, I don't want to install Reddit.

I don't know what it

Spencer: is.

Yeah.

Interesting.

So,

Doug: yeah, I, I agree.

And I, I've talked to.

And seeing a handful of, you know, we
see it on Twitter or whatever, but.

You know, one, one other example
is you know, Matt Giovannese swim

university, he was hit by HCU
and he's had this for 15 years.

He's written all the content.

It's he or his wife or his brother, right.

That wrote the content.

So I.

I'm going to talk to him this week
and I'll find out the details.

But I think in March he, his
site recovered, but who knows?

Cause it, it's not done yet.

Right.

The update is not done yet.

So luckily, you know, he's diversified
over the years, but to your point,

like individual creators, like true
businesses, he was shipping products.

Right.

He had physical products.

He has a presence on many
platforms, but he still got hit.

So it's like, what does Google

Spencer: really want?

Right.

It's, it's a time of uncertainty.

A lot of bloggers and website creators
don't, don't know what Google wants.

And all Google says is return in return
is don't think about what Google wants.

Think about what your user wants.

And it's, it's very frustrating because
you give examples of, of Matt and, you

know, I give examples of food bloggers
that all they're doing in their kitchen.

Working for hours is to
present, you know, good.

content for their audience.

But the way the audience finds it is they
do a search on Google and they see it.

So it's really frustrating.

And just another side note you
know, Google has featured a lot of

publishers and I forgot what it's
called, but it's like Google publisher

stories or something like that.

These stories that get put on.

Google's homepage essentially to
promote all these individual bloggers

and they're making money with ads.

That's, that's kind of the angle of the
stories like, Hey, we're giving full time

income to these business owners because
they have advertising on their website.

It, you know, it promotes the economy.

It helps individuals success stories.

Well, a lot of those featured publisher
stories Their sites were hit with the

helpful content update and it's like
causing this, I don't know, but me

staring at the sidelines, I think it's
causing this headbutt of like this Google

publisher success story team is saying,
Hey, SEO team algorithm, people like you

just crushed all our success stories.

Like, so I don't know what
Google is going to do.

Are they going to change things?

People were really hopeful that
this March core update would

roll back a lot of content.

The helpful content update, but we've
only got about another week to go.

And it does not appear to
have been a lot of recovery.

Doug: Yeah, very devastating.

I'm going to run, run with that.

I haven't, I didn't run across that
story, but that sounds interesting.

It sounds like a good YouTube video.

You mentioned the manual
penalties that were.

Passed out and I got caught
up in that back in 2014.

I learned my lesson with
a PBNs and all that stuff.

Spencer: You remember those days?

I sure do.

Doug: Good grief.

Yeah.

So, I mean, it's, it's something to, to
put a feather to put in our cap, right?

Like we, we did it, we made it
through, we got out on the other side,

but like in this case, and in this
case, I think maybe you even created

a video on this, but like Google.

Could not detect what they
were trying to get rid of.

So they had to go and do this manually.

No specific question, but do you
have any comments on manual penalties

versus algorithmic changes that
impact someone's traffic or rankings?

Spencer: Right.

I think the quote I had was
something like, you know, if Google's

algorithm is so good, why do they
have to manually penalize sites?

And, you know, it's just sort of food
for thought is like, okay, they've built

an entire business on being able to
algorithmically rank different sites.

It's dangerous when you start getting
humans to pick, Oh, well, let's de index

that site and let's de index that one.

And you know, are, are
they doing it properly?

Like what's the procedure there?

And so they can't do that at scale.

So it just sort of makes you wonder
why they're doing all of this.

That, that's maybe just my, my only
comment is I think it's been a scare

tactic by Google to penalize a lot
of Because a lot of SEO influencers

sites, uh, were hit and I, I wasn't
involved in that, but I will simply

say that the SEO influencers that were
hit were definitely those typically

on the more gray black hat side.

So maybe they deserve to
get hit, I don't know.

I think there was a lot of
collateral damage as well, a lot

of people that did not deserve to
get their sites, uh, de indexed.

So it's just this interesting conundrum
that Google appears to be in when

they start taking manual action with
us, with a internet that has millions

and millions of websites on it.

It's crazy.

Doug: Yeah.

And I, I can't say too much, but
I was hanging out with a Googler

at a conference I was at recently.

And, you know, we were having a couple
of drinks and he, he opened up and it

didn't, it didn't fill me with confidence
about what may, may happen in the future.

I mean that he didn't have
any privileged knowledge or

anything like that specifically.

But I'll, I'll just leave it at that.

It was like, oh, and he's like, yeah,
this, this is, um, this is a little crazy.

So,

Spencer: yeah, it's a
interesting times indeed.

So we'll see, we'll see what

Doug: happens.

It's, it's so crazy.

All right.

Well, I, I'm pretty sure
you created a video.

I can't, I forget the name, but
it was, Hey, I wouldn't recommend.

People necessarily start a blog.

Can you explain your thesis about that?

And there's a lot of caveats
and we can go back and forth.

Cause I've been talking about this too.

I mean, I haven't started a
new blog in, in four years.

So obviously like we're doing certain
things in a certain way for a reason.

Right.

So what's your thesis on that?

Spencer: Yeah, I did.

I published a video that essentially
was like, don't start a blog

unless you do certain things.

But I made the case very strongly that.

You shouldn't start a blog expecting
it to make money real quick, right?

Like starting a blog is probably one of
the slower ways to make money, period.

Right?

So you got to really love it.

You really got to be in
it for the long haul.

Expect to work your rear end off for a
year or two before you see much results.

And there's so much uncertainty,
like we just talked about with

all the updates that maybe it's
just not worth rolling that dice.

Uh, and so my whole, uh, thought about
creating that video was like, if I were

talking to my brother or my sister or my
best friend and sat that down, I tried

to be very candid in that video saying,
I don't recommend you should start a

blog, you shouldn't, and you know, but
unless you just have this itch, this

urge to write and create, I And are
willing to go through all of this risk.

If you're looking for a way to make
money on the internet, starting a

blog is not the easiest way, right?

And so, the, the thought was like,
why not start some other business,

a real business, create a product,
you know, create a software

tool, follow my example, right?

Like I, that's literally what I've
done for the last three years.

13, 14 years is like software
has been my main business.

You know, create something and then
add a blog to that something, right?

That's just gonna, that's, that's
the smart way to go about business.

Doug: And I riffed on it, I think on an
email I, I sent out recently and really,

you know, a blog can be great if you
want to write, it's a, it's a great way

to clarify your thoughts, but you should
treat it as a hobby, which basically means

you don't necessarily earn money from it.

If you really love it, there's a good
chance you might earn money from it.

But like you said, I
wouldn't set out that way.

It's just too volatile.

Spencer: You know, I, I hate to
steer anybody away, like just go

in with your eyes open because I
do know people that have started

blogs and, and, you know, websites.

More recently in the last
year that truly are hustlers.

They're willing to invest money.

They're willing to invest time, right?

So there's the one or 2
percent of people out there.

They're going to get it and
they're going to nail it.

And they're going to do really well with
the blog, but my best friend, my siblings.

They probably aren't those people.

So I would tell them,
don't start a blog, right?

If you're in the 98%, like maybe start
some other business to start with.

Doug: And yeah, to your point, like
you've been doing software, right?

So look at what Spencer's
been doing software.

I've been doing podcasts.

I started a new one.

I have three currently in.

I'm going to probably start talking
more about that, but not as.

Not necessarily as like a side hustle.

It's more like, Hey, you want to spread
your message and you think audio and

video is a, is a good way to do it.

Then I can help you out.

It's literally what I've been doing.

I like it so much.

I keep starting shows, even
though I probably should just like

chill, chill with that, but yeah.

You know, you can see
what we're working on.

So I don't know.

I think sometimes people, the
make money online area is a

treacherous part of the internet.

The whole internet is very
treacherous, but make money

online can get a little funny.

And it's been interesting to see who
like sticks around, who navigates

it and treats it professionally
and not as kind of a charlatan.

And I'm rambling on again, no question.

I'm, I'm the worst interviewer.

Do you have any other
thoughts on that, Spencer?

Spencer: No, I agree with your,
your point there is that, um, you

know, there's a lot of, uh, ideas or
people selling things, information.

Right.

That will promise the world and
you'll end up with not a whole lot.

And so, um, I think the smart path
forward for anybody, whether it's starting

a blog or software tool or any other
businesses really sit down and kind of

do a one page business plan for yourself.

Truly think through strategically about
why is your business or your blog better?

Where are you going to get your customers?

What problem are you solving?

Think through it like a real business on a
one page and If you can convince yourself

after thinking through everything,
you know, then maybe move forward to

the next step of trying to start it.

Doug: Any other thoughts on the
March update or Google updates

Spencer: in general?

You know, I guess I just, I don't
envy, uh, the Google search liaison,

Danny Sullivan, his position there.

If you follow him on Twitter or see
his comments on Twitter, he's doing

his best to sort of, alleviate the pain
that individual bloggers are having.

But you've got a lot of shouting
and yelling at Google, a lot of

hate going towards Google, and
he's trying to fend that off.

And so there, there appears
to just be this uprising of

bloggers and individual creators.

If Google hears the
message, I, I don't know.

And so I guess that's where I'll leave
my thoughts in terms of the March core

update, because we've still got a week,
week and a half before it's finished.

People thought maybe it would
kind of reverse some things.

So far it hasn't, but, uh, you know,
we'll kind of figure out what the path

is forward with maybe the next update.

I do think, I do think that Google does
hear a lot of the chatter that goes on.

And if it gets overwhelming enough,
like they at least hear that.

How that impacts what they change.

I don't know, but they
do hear what's going on.

Doug: At the end of the day.

If the results are good, then, you know,
Google will continue to be successful.

People will use the search engine,
but you know, if my neighbors can't

find what they're looking for, they'll
eventually realize, Oh, you know what?

I'll use being or duck,
duck, go or whatever.

I mean, Apple could have a search
engine, roll it out on their devices.

That'd be, I don't know,
that's like 30 percent of.

I'm just making it up.

It's some pretty big percentage.

It would change things dramatically.

Like there would be specialists in like
Apple SEO and they can just focus on that.

For sure.

One thing I've thought of as I've,
you know, kind of, I've lost a little

faith in the SEO game, so to speak.

And maybe I just don't have as much
energy as I was, you know, in years past.

But like, I like to think of the
business plan that you described where

you assume that there is no Google
traffic, like your business should

function without Google traffic at all.

And is that something that you
would advise people to take into

account or at least consider?

Spencer: Yeah, for sure.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I think that, um, you know,
Google is one source of traffic.

And if people look at it that
way, I mean, there's, there's

so many millionaires created.

Every year online that never get
a single visitor from Google.

There's just, there just are.

Doug: Well, as we wrap up here, I know
you'd launched a community recently.

Can you talk a little bit
about that and what the goal

Spencer: is with the community?

Yeah, I created the
niche pursuits community.

It's a premium community, uh, for
people to come and mastermind together.

We put people into small mastermind groups
to really dive into their business and

figure out the issues, talk strategies.

On a more, um, you know, small group
basis, three, four people but then

also every week we're bringing in
experts to talk about whatever traffic

or business strategy they have.

It's for, it typically, so the community
is, is generally targeted toward

online publishers, niche publishers.

And.

So far, we haven't really
talked about SEO at all, right?

The first two expert calls were
about Amazon Influencer, something

that I, you know, started about a
year ago and has done very well.

And then just today we had another expert
call with somebody that a lot of people

know and talked about Google Discover
traffic, which is different than SEO.

And so going forward, I expect for
at least the next year, we're gonna

be every week, we're gonna be talking
about different Traffic strategies that

do not include SEO, Facebook's neck.

We're going to talk about Google
discover for about a month.

And we're going to talk about Facebook
traffic probably for about a month.

Then we'll talk about flipboard and news
break and all these other places that

you can get traffic to your websites that
do not include Google organic sources.

Because that's just, as we talked about
for the past hour, that's kind of.

the sentiment in the industry.

And so anyways, I've created
this community for that purpose.

So people can come in, strategize,
hear from experts and really dial

in their, their online business.

And hopefully everybody can grow
that business and be successful.

Who are

Doug: the right people to join?

So you mentioned like a lot of
niche publishers currently but is

there a certain level, like a pure
beginner or maybe more advanced?

Or where, where do you see that?

, Spencer: the people currently in
the community are more advanced.

Um, you know, so we're attracting
a lot of people that it's You know,

primarily their full time thing, right?

So they're doing really well.

But we, we have a good mix.

We have a good mix.

So definitely skews to people
that are very successful.

But we have a mix of, of some new people.

I would say maybe a hundred percent.

I'm not sure I'd have to check,
but a hundred percent of people

have a website making some money.

Right?

I think that's just, we're, we're not
going to teach you the ground level stuff.

We're not going to teach you
to install WordPress and set

up your website and, right?

Like if you, no, you probably need
to be just slightly above brand new

beginner to get some value out of this.

And, uh, the great thing is that
we combine you based on your level

of either income, experience,
or where you're interested.

With other people in a similar
spot as you in, in the mastermind.

Um, so if you're making 500 bucks a
month, we're going to find you people

making 500 bucks a month that have been
at it for a year or two or whatever.

Doug: So got it.

Perfect.

Reminds me a little bit of, uh, Dynamite
Circle from Tropical NBA, which I think,

have you been on their show before?

I,

Spencer: a long time
ago, I was on their show.

Yes.

They've been

Doug: around since like
2005 or something like that.

Yeah, a long time.

Yeah.

Reminds me of that.

So with your community and this will
be a sort of the wrap up, but, um, is

there any minimum for people to join?

It sounds like anyone can join cause
I know like dynamite circle, I think

you have to make like 60 or a hundred
K a year or something like that.

There's a little

Spencer: application, no
minimum, anybody can join.

Um, and so, yeah, they can just go to.

Community.

nichepursuits.

com.

People can join there, see
if it's right for them.

See if they're a good fit.

Doug: Very good.

Alright, cool.

Well, Spencer, it's always
a pleasure to catch up.

Where should people find you?

And we'll link up for all
this stuff, uh, for people

Spencer: to check it out.

Yeah, probably, um, the three
best places to go, nichepursuits.

com, my main blog.

Uh, they can join the newsletter there.

Um, second is YouTube.

I've been, uh, you know,
putting out weekly videos there.

Um, youtube.

com slash well, just niche pursuits.

You'll find it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, uh, and then Twitter at niche
pursuits is another good place.

All right.

Doug: Thanks a lot, Spencer.

We'll talk to

Spencer: you soon.

Thanks, Doug.

Appreciate it.

It's always fun to catch up with
Spencer and I highly recommend

you check out niche pursuits.

His podcast, his YouTube
channel, all the stuff, the

community sounds pretty awesome.

And I do credit Spencer
with helping me get started.

I followed his podcast and blog, and I
first heard his interview with pat Flynn.

In 2013, probably within a week
or so of finding smart, passive

income, and then started consuming
Spencer's podcast and his blog.

And it was.

Super helpful.

I can't overemphasize it.

So super helpful.

And I was on Spencer's podcast in like
January of 2014, if that was right.

And shortly after.

I was on the show.

My site got hit with a manual penalty.

So here we are a little
over 10 years later.

And, you know, manual
penalties were thing.

And.

It's one of those stories that
most SEOs have, especially if

they're testing the limits, right.

There's something to
be said of, of testing.

What is on the edge of acceptable.

You have to deal with the consequences.

Of course you have to understand the
risk and what you're getting into.

And actually, I think back to that
episode, which I don't even know

if it's still out there, right.

It's highly irrelevant.

Uh, 10 years old.

The SEO world or marketing, like a
lot of this stuff has just changed,

but I cringed to think what I said
and how stupid I was back then.

And I'm sure when I look back 10
years from now, I'll think, ah,

doc, you were really stupid in 2024.

It's funny that you thought
you knew what was going on.

But that means we're growing.

And it means we're learning new stuff
and applying what we've learned and more

experience and all that kind of stuff.

Anyway.

Check out all the Spencer stuff.

It's always fun to catch up with them
and we'll catch you on the next episode.

Thanks.