Ranking Revolution

Welcome to the ranking revolution
podcast, your source for strategies

and tips about SEO, organic growth.

And online business today, I'm talking
to Jared Bahman and as normal, these

interviews are divided into two parts.

Part one, this specific episode.

Is a day in the life of
running an SEO agency.

So we get into some of
the nitty-gritty details.

And I think we could have talked for like
three hours just on this one subject.

But we keep it fairly tight.

And it's a little bit longer
than the normal episode.

Part two, we talk about
building a personal brand

with a newsletter and YouTube.

So.

I'm not going to ramble on here.

I'm just going to go straight
to the episode with Jared.

Doug: Today I'm pumped to
talk to my friend Jared.

So Jared Bauman is the CEO of 201
Creative, and he's an expert in

business strategy, SEO, and marketing.

He founded Bauman Photographers
and co founded Shoot.

Edit before his current venture.

Jared Host, the niche pursuits
podcast, one of my favorite shows.

He contributes to search engine
land and has authored a bestselling

book on public speaking.

I didn't realize that, but you
gave me a couple of tips back

in the day about protecting my
voice, which I do a poor job at.

Jared: That's right.

Unfortunately.

Doug: Yeah.

Jared also has a BS from UC San
Diego and over 20 years in business.

He's a sought after speaker and
educator in the creative industry.

So thanks a lot for
joining me today, Jared.

How's it going?

Jared: Very good.

Very good, Doug.

Good to be here with you.

Doug: And we're going to go
over two main areas today.

So one, I want to hear the day
in the life of running an agency.

And we're going to go through
a lot of different areas.

I didn't connect with running an agency.

I perhaps have a bad attitude and
I don't like to work with clients.

I'm not, I'm not quite sure some
deep seated thing that I have, but

we're going to go over things like
time management, prioritization,

understanding how to interact with
clients so that it works for both you.

And the client straight up SEO work,
your team management, what your team

looks like, business development,
and dealing with the challenges

that inevitably will pop up.

And then in the second part, we're going
to talk about weekend growth, which is

a side project that you're working on.

I've added side project.

I don't know where it comes into
the priority list, but we'll get

into the details about that as
far as the newsletter and the

YouTube channel, which is great.

So we'll just jump right into it and
talk about sort of what your agency

does and Give us the landscape and
then we'll dig into some of the other

Jared: details.

Yeah.

You know, we started the
company about five years ago.

It started as what we would call a full
stack marketing agency over the years.

It's turned into a company
that starts out with clients by

primarily focusing on SEO and then.

As an agency, we continue to handle
the things that clients typically

need once SEO starts working.

And that's the best way
I've found to frame it up.

We don't do ads.

We did at the beginning.

But I find ad and a lot
of agencies do ads, right?

They will run paid media
and paid ads for companies.

But I find that it's very opposite
in many ways of what SEO does.

And we've just become so specialized
in SEO, um, that that that's

basically our bread and butter.

It's what we get referred for.

But once you get SEO working, once you
get traffic coming to your website day

in, day out, you do need things like.

Landing page optimization, email
email, funnel creation, and these

sorts of services, which we also offer.

Doug: And this specialization
makes perfect sense.

I suspect it clarifies your offer and
maybe even who the right customers are.

Can you talk about that a little bit?

Am I on point for simplifying the offer?

So it's very clear what the client
should get when they start working with

Jared: you.

Yes.

And you know, it's a, it's funny because
I'm a big fan of specialization of almost

niching down as far as you possibly can.

And I get asked a lot, like, do you
guys focus on one type of SEO, say,

you know, SEO for a certain type of
clientele, maybe you're a veterinarian.

Do you focus on one type?

Maybe in a specific
industry like e commerce.

And the answer to that is no, but
mainly because focusing on SEO has

been specialized enough for us to
continue to get lots of referrals.

And so, I think you need to kind of
niche down as far as you need to.

And the further you niche down,
the more specialized you can get.

For us, being a company that handles SEO,
And does it in the way we do, which we

can get into, I think is what garners the
referrals and keeps our traffic coming in.

And so, but, but yes, back to your
point, we've become known as a company

that can help you out with your SEO
and then all the things that come as

a result of it as you grow from that.

And as you know, SEO can be a
great buffer against a company

that relies on their ads.

And so we can oftentimes work with
an ad vendor and then slowly a

company can decide how they want to
spend that money as they get SEO.

You know, working in equivalent to
the way their ads are producing.

Doug: Do you find that you end up working
in an industry because those are the peers

that the referrals might come through?

So a vet has friends that are
vets, and then they end up working

with you because of the referral.

Jared: Yeah, a hundred percent like
vets are one of the things that we've

ended up in there's nothing about what
we do that specializes in veterinarian

work, except for the fact that we know
a lot about it because we started with

one vet, they referred us to another
vet, they referred us to another

emergency clinic, who referred us to
another, you know, broad, animal doctor

and et cetera, et cetera, and so now
I feel like we know a lot about it.

So to some degree, yeah.

We have some specializations through
that, but we don't target it, right?

I don't go out there and
target and advertise us as

a veterinarian seo company.

So yeah, part and parcel What about the

Doug: size of the businesses?

Does that play a big role?

Jared: Most of the time
we're working with smbs.

We've worked with some large companies
We've worked with companies on a

retainer model we've worked with one
company that was over 100 million

dollars a year in revenue for
Probably nearing about two years.

Most of the time we're with SMBs.

So small, medium sized
businesses, many local businesses.

Uh, that's one area we work a lot in
and have a lot of, you know, just a lot

of local clients all over the country.

And local would be focusing
around one single locale.

So you're selling something to a certain,
uh, Demographic and that in a location,

but then e commerce and sass is also,
um, are also two big other channels.

So e commerce businesses, SAS businesses,
but typically smaller or medium size,

you know, probably under 10 million
with many of them being under 5

million in terms of total revenue.

How many clients do you have?

35 to 40 changes every month.

Many are on monthly retainers.

Many are kind of one off clients that
we work with in a repeatable fashion.

And every once in a while we just
get a client that comes in or is

like a content plan or an audit and
then goes about their merry way.

Okay.

Doug: How many years have you been in
business with the current iteration?

I guess

Jared: five years this May.

So we were official on May of 2019.

We did start doing work in 2018, but that
was more kind of under the radar, working

with personal connections and consulting
and building out kind of the agency

approach we wanted to have figured out how
we wanted to do it and that sort of stuff.

So official in May of 2019.

So officially May of
2024 will be five years.

Doug: You are one of the founders.

What is the sort of executive team or just
talk about how the company came together?

Jared: I'm one of two founders.

I own 80 percent of the company.

My business partner,
Caitlin owns the other 20%.

Um, she started as an intern at
my very first company, which you

mentioned, Bama photographers.

She interned there for almost a year.

She was, She came to me at the end
of the internship was like, okay,

well, um, I'm gonna be leaving soon.

And you know, I'm graduating college.

I need to get a job.

And I'm like, Whoa, don't go get a job.

We, I want to hire you.

And she's like, well, you, you
don't have any positions here.

And I'm like, no, but I just started
this other company called shoot.

edit.

Let's get you hired there.

I ended up in the next year or two
selling bomb photographers and going and

spending all my time at shoot dot edit.

And, um, Caitlin went from being an
operations person to assistant marketer

to director of marketing at that company.

And then when I left and, um, sold my,
a part of that business to my business

partner and started two and creative.

She came along and we decided
it's probably finally time third

business working together that she
has a little bit of equity in it.

Doug: That's cool.

That's cool.

And then you suspect once you've trained
someone, it's great to not let that

training go to waste and keep building on
top of it by continuing to work together.

So that's pretty cool.

Jared: Also a lot of yin and yang
there, you know, like there's a

lot of things I do well, there's
a lot of things I don't do well.

I think running companies for
over 20 years has really exposed

the things that I don't do well.

And, um, you know, when you find
someone that's the opposite in terms

of strengths and that you work really
well together, communication is easy,

those sorts of things like that, that's
kind of a combination that's pretty

hard to come by, you know, both the
strengths that are different than yours

and the communication that doesn't take.

And you know, an amount
of work to make that work.

Like those are just some
intangibles that are hard to find.

Doug: All right.

So we've laid a pretty
good foundation here.

Just a couple more follow up
questions before we get into

some of the other details.

So you have you and Caitlin, what
is the rest of the team look like?

If there's any other folks working
on it, whether it's freelancers

or other full time folks.

Jared: Yeah, so we have an SEO strategist.

So that's the person who I work
with directly to dictate strategy

for those 35 to 40 clients.

Uh, we have several, what we call
client managers, you know, account

managers, whatever you want to call them.

That's the, the people that interact on
a daily ongoing basis with our clients.

We pride ourselves on having
really good customer service.

That's an area that agencies often will
fall short of when you talk to people.

Um, and so I do spend a lot of time
with clients, which sounds like Doug

would drive you nuts, but I spend
a lot of time with them along with

our account or client managers.

But then underneath that we have, you
know, um, uh, director of operations.

Um, we have, uh, uh, production
managers, we have a PR team, we have

a, uh, a content team and a couple of
other smaller teams that do, I guess,

a lot of the legwork that are different
areas can, can source out to we don't

outsource much of the work, which we
can talk about that as a business model.

95%, some months, a hundred
percent of our work that we do

for clients is all done in house.

under our team.

So that's also another area
that is really hard to maintain.

We can talk about those complexities,
but also allows us to really

control the end product really well.

So the two things that we put a big
emphasis on is that really, really

responsive customer service and, and then
having hyper control of the deliverable.

And so those two things work
together to kind of make us better.

I guess a little bit different, a
little bit more unique, or at least

that's what our clients tell us.

How many

Doug: people total is that?

I was trying to keep count and
of course, or, you know, it

maybe expands and all that stuff.

But I mean, that could
be 15, 20 people or so

Jared: Yep.

20 to 30, you know, 20,
it would be the core team.

Whereas when we're up to 30, it's
mainly because we're expanding the

writer, the people that write or are
doing something specific for a client.

So if we have a client come in, they
need a specific, you know, I'm trying

to think of a scenario that would
make sense, like an attorney, we have

attorneys we work with, and we'll need
a specific type of attorney to come

in and write, review those kinds of
things, or someone who specializes

in that field will bring them on for
the project six months, nine months.

So 20 to 30 people, 20 core staff,
30 will fluctuate on, you know,

an independent consultant basis.

Doug: And are those folks.

Located in the U S as well.

Are they remote?

Um, it sounds like you
could ramp up and ramp down.

So it might be more of
a freelancer situation.

Jared: Everyone's remote.

You know, when we started in 2019,
we did have a core team in San Diego,

which is the area I'm in about five of
us, but we were remote at that point.

Uh, I'm the only one left in San Diego,
so we're fully remote and everybody

kind of works wherever they want, um,
to some degree, whenever they want.

Um, and, uh, uh, yeah, that's
the way the setup has, has

basically been from the beginning.

Doug: It is beautiful in San Diego,
but it is, it's a little expensive.

So I imagine, you know, people
potentially can save some money by moving.

Jared: Quite a bit.

Yeah, it is.

It's great here, but you
highlighted some of the challenges.

Doug: It's beautiful there.

I mean, it's a vacation spot.

That's why it's expensive to live there.

Great.

So is there anything else before we get
into some other stuff, maybe about the

team or history or anything like that?

I think we're good to move
on, but if I missed anything.

All right, perfect.

Let's talk about your morning routine.

So this kind of gets
into the nuts and bolts.

I mean, you have a big team, but you do
have some lieutenants and a co founder.

And I'm curious about.

How you sort of start your day or your
week, because I know with that number of

people, if you have too many interactions,
too many communication channels, you

literally could just have a full day stuck
in email or slack or whatever you do.

So when you start off a week or
a day, what does that look like?

Jared?

Jared: Ooh, boy, we could be on
this for the next couple of hours.

If you want, I am really
nerdy about all this.

Um, from a high level.

I, um, Monday, keep my calendar
completely free Tuesday, Wednesday

are, uh, heavy on, uh, meetings.

Thursday is the day that I do
podcasts or podcast interviews.

Traditionally, Doug,
you're the exception today.

I noticed that you didn't
have a Thursday available.

So I grabbed this spot, but typically
Thursday would be interview podcast day.

And then Friday is, um, task day,
days I get tasks and projects

done that I need to be working on.

As you know, that always ebbs and
flows a little bit every week.

You know, you can't be super
rigid, case in point here, but

that's kind of the attempt.

And I think that when you have an attempt
like that, I'd say about, you know, the

classic 80 20 rule, like 80 percent of the
time, that's how it plays out with the,

you know, odd exceptions here and there.

On it, any questions there you want
me to kind of go into that each day?

Doug: That's beautiful.

It's actually fairly
similar to what I try to do.

Like you said, you have to compromise
and be flexible when you need to, but

overall that that's pretty darn close.

So that's perfect.

Yeah.

So let's get into each of the

Jared: days.

Daily, I'm usually at my desk around 5.

30 a.

m.

No, I, I'm not the like, you know, cold
shower, like, you know, jump into an ice

bath, like, you know, alarms and all that.

I just, I, I'm a natural early
riser and, uh, my, my wife, Has

always joked like I could take the
SAT within 10 seconds of waking up.

I'm just early.

So I like to get my um, I like to
hit the ground running and get the

Tough thinking work done as quickly
as possible in the day so from about

5 30 to 7 30 or so i'm doing the Most
important things of the day i'm doing.

Um, i'm and i'm working on the little
nuances maybe a specific client

issue we've got to overcome Or When
I say issue like a ranking issue or

we're having trouble getting traction
somewhere I need to think about some

sort of project that those are the two
hours of the day I spend on that kind

of stuff the heavy thinking stuff.

I love being in my office I love having
my window here the Sun starting to come

up the cup of coffee like is that's just
kind of my My zone I try to get the most

important thing done during that point of
the day, which I think as a CEO, if the

most important thing is answering emails
or checking off a sauna tasks, then you're

kind of have the wrong prioritization,
which I've been there before.

So I'm hoping to also accomplish the most
important thing of the day right then.

So by 7 30 AM, I come out of my office,
my kids are up, I go have breakfast, I

hang out for a little bit, maybe take
them to school, depending on the day

of the week and that sort of stuff.

9 AM to lunchtime.

So 9 AM to 1130 or so.

Is going to be, um, again,
in a perfect world, external,

uh, meetings with clients.

Not all clients can meet in the morning
and not all clients are my time zone.

So I do have a block on Tuesday
afternoons that I have open for

clients if they prefer an afternoon
or evening slot, but that's smaller.

So I try to do my meetings with external
clients in the mornings, and then I

try to do my meetings with my internal
team in the afternoons, and then I

always leave an hour at the end of
my day, whatever that day looks like.

For emails and asana tasks.

Doug: Monday, you said
you like to keep it free.

Is that a three day weekend or is that
a free day to catch up on other stuff in

Jared: work?

That is a free day.

That is a day where I'll usually
sleep in a little bit, maybe hit 6 30.

No, that's a day that I allow myself
to be more open ended so I can focus on

larger strategic questions, whether it's.

Call it vision casting.

Where are we going?

Whether it's an area that maybe we're
having a challenge in organizationally

internally externally To think about
and focus on I do end up on calls.

I do end up answering emails I
do end up doing some projects,

but it's very open ended.

There's no structure There's no schedule
that day And so I can kind of bounce

around if I want to go on a hike for an
hour and a half that day and just Use that

time to think i've got that flexibility
if I want to go work from a coffee shop

You Maybe down by the beach or something.

I've got that flexibility.

Or if I just want to catch
up and knuckle down, I could

spend that Monday doing that.

It's kind of like a buffer day.

I do try to leave it open though,
for some of that strategic thinking.

Cause it, it can be hard when
you're in that daily flow of like

meeting this, that to kind of get
into the zone thinking high level.

And so that's that data to do that.

If I'm at Thursday, I'm like,
Oh, I got to think about that.

I can just know that I have the
Monday to think about stuff.

Doug: I know exactly what you mean.

You know, you're in maybe interview
mode and you might talk to

three or four different people.

And it's really hard to
switch back, at least for me.

And it sounds like maybe for
you too, Jared, switch back

into like critical thinking.

And then I too am an early riser.

So by the afternoon, I'm like,
okay, I need to go walk around and

just have some like open space,

Jared: I guess.

And to your point, I
exercise in the afternoons.

And I know most people like exercise
in the morning and I totally get it,

but, and I'd rather get my workout
done in the morning, but that's

my, that's like my mental zone.

And like you, by the afternoon, like
I'm really like, I got like an hour

of work and then I need to break.

And then I've got like another
hour and then I need a break.

So I try to like hit lunch.

You know, figure out how my slots are
coming in the afternoon and then go for

a hike, go for a run, go for a workout,
maybe hit the gym, come back, do that

last hour or so, but I'm like you.

So that's, that's why I put my
workout there in the afternoon.

Pretty much.

Doug: Okay.

So you have your days
laid out pretty well.

With a little flexibility,
you have 30 to 40 clients.

How do you prioritize what
to work on if there's a fire?

And, you know, we hear this and I
know you hear it too, Jared, from

interacting with, uh, you know,
various audiences and other people.

People that were just in contact with
the conferences, but like, there can

be things that are number one priority
for a client or a person, but for

you, you have to rank it somehow.

So how do you do that when there
are multiple in air quotes,

number one priority things
that you must solve that day?

What do you do?

Jared: You know, I should
have prepared for this.

I can't remember.

I use this constantly.

I can't remember what it's called.

You might know actually, cause
you're an organizational expert.

There's, um, important versus unimportant.

And then there's, you know,
priority versus not a priority.

And so there's that kind of quadrant.

And then I also kind of have added my own
quadrant of delegate versus not delegate.

And so there's kind of these, Three
questions I ask about everything

that ends up getting put before me.

Um, most of the time, these
things get sorted out with weekly

check ins with direct reports.

And so, um, if you have a, uh, a team,
I really encourage you to not let

everybody funnel to you, but to have
people to funnel to, and then, you

know, try to keep your teams as small
as they can, because even if you're

not the one running a team of eight,
there's a chance that team of eight might

be a lot for someone else to manage.

Um, it looks different though,
depending on the industry you're

in, but I try to have, you know,
two to three direct reports.

Obviously one of them is Caitlin and,
um, uh, she's in charge of all of

our operations, which is extensive.

So all this stuff that has to
get fulfilled every month for the

clients she's in charge of, right?

So, um, she's going to funnel a lot
of those fires before they get to me.

Same with people, you know, the
other people that, that I, that

report to me, but I try to look at
everything as how important is it?

Okay.

You know, is it a really big problem
that if we don't resolve that problem,

it's going to lead to really bad
things happening, or is it a problem

that feels bad or that kind of
sucks, but really isn't that big of

a deal in the grand scheme of things.

I look at how urgent it is, right?

There are some problems that get surfaced
or some issues that get surfaced and

they're definitely something we're going
to have to tackle, but it's just not

something that has to get tackled today.

Um, For better or for worse, the ROI
is better to put that off a little

bit to focus on more important things.

And then I look at if
it could be delegated.

And a lot of times, um, having a posture
and leadership of asking your direct

report, who's bringing you the problem.

Like, what do you think we should do?

Is a great place to be first and foremost,
because you help encourage people to

solve the problem before they come to you.

And oftentimes once you've done this a
while, they're bringing you the problem.

And they already have the solution
that they think you ought to do.

They're just kind of
looking for your permission.

And that's a much better place as a leader
to be, because going back to what you

said, like you're getting pulled in a lot
of different directions, usually quite

oftentimes a person who's bringing you the
problem has better perspective on it and

how to solve it than you do, or it's going
to take you a while to get to that spot.

So sometimes, um, in terms of
delegation, what I really mean by

that is how maybe more empowerment so
that you don't have to get as involved

and get a better answer anyways.

Doug: Awesome.

The urgent versus important little matrix.

It's often called the Eisenhower

Jared: matrix.

Yes.

That's what it is.

I knew it was a, yep.

A leader, a leader's name.

Yep.

So my financial planner taught me that
many years ago, and I just thought

it was his for the longest time.

And I was out to coffee with them
five or six years after that.

I told him about how influential it
was and how brilliant I thought he was.

And I was telling everyone that I talked
to about how brilliant my buddy is.

He's like, Oh dude, I
totally ripped that off this.

This it's like a well
known Eisenhower method.

I'm like, Oh, I didn't know that.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Doug: And I like, I ran across it, but
like you said, a lot of things will

either fall out or it's very clear, like,
you know, the building's on fire and

everyone needs to get out that kind of
urgent, or like, this is really important

to solve within two weeks, but we don't
have to solve it today, right now.

And yeah, one of the
quadrants is to delegate.

So.

I'm going to summarize a couple
other things you mentioned too.

So it sounds like you, you
know, you look at the ROI.

So very clearly from a business sense,
like, is this the best use of our

time right now, given the constraints
that you only have 24 hours in a day.

And then the other is like the
consequence, which might be related to the

ROI, both in a positive and negative way.

Negative manner.

So it could be a consequence
or it could be an opportunity.

And the other thing with a delegation, you
highlighted so much, um, awesome stuff,

the other portion, and just the rephrase
is you have buy in from your team.

So if they supply the.

The solution, they have like a much
more vested interest than if you

say, do this, then they're like, ah,
Jared told me to do it, but I don't

know if that's the best way to do it.

So they have the context.

So it's like, they probably
do have the best solution.

Jared: Yeah.

And it goes back to working with
the right people and coaching.

And you know, if after a while they
aren't the right person moving on from

them, but if you have the right person
coaching them up and empowering them, um,

and it feeds back to what we talked about
earlier, if something is important, but

not urgent, Then it goes on my to do list.

And then if it's a project type
thing, it happens on Friday.

And if it's not a project, but
it's a strategic type thing,

it gets addressed on Monday.

And so you're trying to limit, at
least I am, I'm trying to limit

the number of urgent and important
things that I have to tend to.

That, those are the ones that the
building's on fire, everyone get out.

But besides that, and hopefully
you can minimize those, the rest of

them can just slot themselves nicely
into the structure you've already

created for the day or for the week.

Doug: Let's shift into
your client interactions.

So you mentioned you have a couple
of days with, you know, client

meetings and you're able to provide
like really good customer service.

How does the meeting look?

It sounds like the expectations need
to be clear so they don't cross.

Call and text you all during
the week, 24 hours a day.

So how do you manage that and
what does a typical meeting look

Jared: like?

Yeah, so, um, there's
several types of meetings.

There's either gonna be monthly
meetings for clients that are on monthly

retainers, which most of our clients are.

And monthly meetings are overview based.

They're question and answer based.

They're an opportunity
connect with the client.

Sometimes those meetings while blocked
out for half an hour, go 10 minutes . Um,

and that's, I think, a really good sign.

I love it when my 30 minute
meetings go 10 minutes, not just

cause I get 10 minutes back.

And I don't mean that pedantically.

I mean, from a, from what it
symbolizes, which means that the

client is at a point where they're
not trying to like maximize time.

Obviously, if they have 30 minutes
of stuff to discuss, great.

But when a client is at a point
where they can feel comfortable

being like, cool, we've gotten
done what we need to get done.

I'm good to go.

It just, It's a great sign that
they're, they're comfortable

with where things are at.

There's almost like a comfort in
the relationship at that point.

But those 30 minute monthly calls
are usually all about reviewing

where we're at, reviewing the
KPIs and answering questions.

Um, I have a phrase I like to use
and it really applies more in SEO

than maybe other industries, but I
never really want a client to make a

decision that they don't understand.

And that can happen a lot in SEO where
someone will be like, this is all black

magic and dark art, and I don't get it.

So just tell me what you
think we ought to do.

And I find that while it's nice, they
have that sort of trust per se, like

not at least having them understand
the high level is a recipe for disaster

because then when you need buy in,
when you need a little bit more time

for something to work, when you run
into a challenge and you need to talk

with them about it, they never were
necessarily on board to begin with.

And so I like to spend
those 30 minute meetings.

Spend as much time just trying to talk
through why we're going after what

we're going after Why we're doing what
we're doing to achieve a certain kpi.

So a lot of it is kind of just
uh, You know jared, uh lecture

time if you will Um, but so, you
know, that's an important part.

Um, Of trying to work with a client is
those 30 minute meetings every month now

there are One off meetings where we're
tackling a certain item have a meeting

later on today What we're getting on
to talk with a client and their dev

team about repairs that surfaced out
of our site audit And so we do a site

audit for clients usually once per year.

So this client has been with
us for a while We did a site

audit And we surfaced a bunch of
things that need to get repaired.

And they're like, Hey, can we
get on a call with our dev team?

So we can all get the same page,
you know, cause devs get a little

weird when SEO people get involved
and they're like, don't touch this.

And so we all get the same page and
we'll talk through what we're going

to do, what they're going to do.

And so we do have a decent number of
those kind of one off meetings to address

certain things that have been surfaced.

And sometimes those can
be handled without me.

So sometimes the client manager
will just get on that call directly.

And sometimes I'll get on the
call with the client manager.

We just decide in advance.

Is it a strategic thing?

If so, I'll join.

Is it a tactical thing?

Usually I don't need to join
tactical calls and that can just

be handled by the client manager.

Doug: With the, it sounds like there
are some calls where the client

manager and you are on, on the call.

Is that accurate?

Yeah.

How much prep do you
guys do ahead of time?

Do you have an outline?

Do you rehearse it?

Do you have like basically a 30 minute
meeting to get ready for another

30 minute meeting with a client?

Jared: We prep for every call.

Um, we don't review it in advance in terms
of a call, but that is a shared google

doc that lives in the client's repository.

And so everyone who's gonna be on the
call will review that in advance and we'll

use our messenger to go back and forth.

If we have any questions to make
sure we're all on the same page.

Um, and I have someone on the
team who helps build out all that.

So who understands the strategy
we're going after and they help

us build the meeting notes.

And then I'll review them
and I'll have my own.

So it's a little bit more, our meeting
prep process is a little bit more

laborious maybe than it needs to be.

Um, but I just, I don't like, I
just feel like I'm the expert.

We're the expert.

We, what do experts do?

They show up ready to go, you know,
like I just, I want to show up.

So sometimes we're a little overprepared.

Sometimes we are prepared to talk about
things that never get talked about, but.

I can just see in clients when they ask a
question and oftentimes we have an answer.

They, you know, they just, they have
that assurance that builds that trust.

And again, going back to SEO
and the beliefs around SEO.

Every chance I can get to showcase
that trust and earn their trust is

to me a bigger win than maybe the
overpreparation that we go through.

Doug: That's great though.

It makes sense because, you know, SEOs
in the industry can have a little bit

of a bad reputation out there and the
preparation that you mentioned is perfect.

I come from the consulting world where
it was, you know, a lot more money.

It was a lot more expensive for the
client to have the engagement and

paying, uh, you know, a team to be there.

So like we, we like rehearsed everything
and like really needed to be prepared.

And if we didn't show up, then
like show up ready to go, then

our bosses would hear about it.

Like it impacts like a lot of revenue
generating activity and renewal

of contract and all that stuff.

So it makes perfect sense to me.

I mean, show up, ready to go.

Jared: And sometimes it also gives me
the freedom to be like on the rare case

where we don't know I'm comfortable
saying like, I don't know the answer

to that, but we'll research it and
I'll get back to you on that, you know?

So you kind of give yourself the
permission then to, if you don't

have it prepared, you can kind of
let them know, and they can see

that you're pretty well prepared.

So they don't have a problem
with that response at that point.

All right.

Doug: Well, there's so much more
I want to cover here, but I'm

going to dive into a couple.

Specific areas, you know, SEO, you
mentioned, you can get into some of the

SEO work that you, the company does.

So talk about that.

And then I'll have a couple of
follow ups and then hopefully we'll

have enough time to transition into
the other topic here as well, too.

But yeah, what's the primary
SEO work that you guys are

Jared: doing?

Well, there's typically two
types of people, two types of

customers that are coming to us.

One of them is the company
that has usually built.

One six, one, one successful channel
so far and is looking for SEO to be

the second successful channel for them.

Um, oftentimes they've grown the
business on the back of paid ads.

Or word of mouth or some other channel.

Some people succeed on a social media
channel But they're getting business

from this one channel and they're
utilizing seo as their second channel

to either continue to add revenue
to their business or to Add some

diversity to the source of the revenue
or the source of the traffic, right?

I don't find seo is usually the
first You Traffic generator, the

first channel that people go for.

It's very rare for me to be talking
to business and they're like, we're

just getting off the ground and
we want to hire agency for SEO.

It's usually the second.

And so that's a brand that hasn't
really put much effort into SEO.

Often doesn't know anything about SEO,
understands it's valuable, understands

they need it, but they've gotten their
primary success on another channel.

And they're now looking
to parlay that with SEO.

The second brand, a second type of
client would be someone who has invested

in SEO, whether it's, they have an
in house team or they have somebody

who focuses on that, or they've used
an agency before, whatever it is, and

they've had some negative results or
they've had some decreasing results

from that over the past period of time.

And they're looking to reinvest in SEO
or they're looking to get their SEO

back on track, or they're looking to
figure out what's not working and where

they need to put their time and effort.

Um, Two different types of clients.

And I segment it cause it's two
different types of approaches, right?

One is more of a growth,
growth first mentality.

The other is a real audit
first growth, second mentality.

Um, both end up going the same
direction, but one involves some work

on the front end before we can kind
of really start focusing on growth.

That's much more audit heavy in
the first part, content audit.

Technical audit, fix, repair,
oftentimes deleting content, a lot of

article updates or content updates,
product page updates, um, fixing

technical issues that, you know,
could be a myriad of different things.

And then we start on the growth plan.

Whereas with the first client
I talked about, it's growth.

And, you know, growth from a very high
level looks a lot like, um, content.

And then PR slash links, you know, so,
um, uh, you put the two of them together

along with a good technical makeup
and, uh, and give it time and it's

kind of like compound interest, right?

It, it grows.

All right.

And

Doug: how, I guess it always depends,
but I'll just ask the generic question of

for the audit portion, how long does that
take, you know, like you said, you kind

of have to clean up whatever was there
and fix things, whether it was incorrect,

you know, when they did it the first
time, or if it, you know, just slowly age,

but yeah, how long does it take for, you
know, the average client to go through

the audit and then clean up process?

Jared: Almost all the audits
are three to four weeks and we

can do them at the same time.

So we can run our content audit and
our technical audit at the same time,

get the results back, get in a call.

Usually it takes say three to four weeks
to do the audits and then another one

to two weeks for the client to review
them, kind of understand them, go through

them and then get on the calls with us.

Um, our audits are A little overwhelming.

They're far from cookie cutter.

Usually our content audits are
40 to 45 pages and our technical

audits are 25 to 40 pages.

So if a client's getting both,
they're getting upwards of nearing a

hundred pages of documentation plus
30 to 50 spreadsheets on top of that.

Um, so you know, that's why those
calls are helpful to get on a

call and be like, okay, let's
talk about what this all means.

This is a lot, but again,
I'd rather give them.

More information in this world.

I live in in the technical
in the SEO world.

I'd rather give them more information
because it shows exactly how in depth

we're going to present our findings.

And what we think that they should do.

But usually six weeks in, we have
a roadmap for what we need to do

to fix stuff and to then also grow.

Sometimes we can do it
at the same time, right?

Let's get the technical side fixed
while we start producing better content,

while we fix internal linking, while
we fix your landing pages, while we

fix your product, SKUs, et cetera.

Sometimes that repair work will take a
lot longer, depends on what the client

ends up deciding, but we can usually
hit the ground running after four to six

weeks, depending on how, you know, how
fast all those things fall into place.

Doug: Do you have a set price
for first piece of work?

Let's say for the, the audit and
roadmap, or is it a custom solution

depending on the client and the size?

How do you put together

Jared: that offer?

It's pretty standardized and we've
based it basically on the number

of pages that your site has.

Um, we didn't do that at first, and then I
got a 35, 000 page website that we charged

the same amount as our normal, you know,
two to five hundred page website reviews,

so we learned that one the hard way.

Um, that we have to have a little
bit of price flexibility depending

on how many pages we're auditing.

Um, but yeah, there's kind of
basically you've got your small

business, your local business, right?

That's going to have generally under
100 pages on the site and it's going

to make everything from crawling
to aggregating the data to kind of

formulating reports a lot easier.

You've got your mid level site that's
going to be a hundred to maybe upward

upwards of like A thousand or 2000
pages, those typically fall into

the same type of, you know, business
model, maybe an e com site with, you

know, a hundred different SKUs or, um,
maybe a SAS that's been investing in

blog content for a couple of years.

And it's got a bunch of different
product offerings, a content business.

And then you've got these
5, 000 URLs and upwards.

And, you know, are one of the sites
we work with right now is about, you

know, 40, 000 URLs, uh, we've worked
with sites, you know, in the 500, 000

URL range, you know, and so these sites
require a much different approach.

You're running into like, you know, just
even crawling the site takes a whole

new level of, uh, of, of kind of, uh,
approach and, you know, aggregating

that data is a much different process.

So I'd say that they end up in
about three main categories in

terms of the price and the size.

Doug: Okay.

And final question about
the team and the SEO work.

So you have a handful of client managers.

How important is it for them to
be proficient or expert SEOs or do

they, you know, they obviously have a
different skillset to work with clients.

So how do you view that?

And what is their experience level
and technical know how with SEO?

Jared: So their technical.

SEO know how is very good, but
they don't need to be experts.

And I've spent a lot of time
thinking about this and trying

to find the right solution.

And we've hired people of varying degrees
of experience level to see which one is

the best approach, um, over the years.

It's not like I sat down and went like,
okay, let's try really experienced

and really inexperienced, and let's
just throw them both to the wolves.

It's just kind of played out that
way over the years that like, we

found someone really good, really
personable, really good at connecting.

Doesn't know much about SEO.

Let's see if that works really well.

Didn't work very well.

I now know why it didn't work very
well, and I'm not going to make that

mistake again But we also don't need
like an expert tactician when it comes

to SEO because the client manager knows
exactly how to have a conversation

around all the SEO components that
we would work with on the client, but

doesn't need to be an expert in it
and has our SEO strategist to backstop

them with every detailed question.

So our client managers
know a lot about SEO.

They can talk about any of the different
things that we'll run into, but when

it comes to the high level strategy,
they can go to our SEO strategist and

they do like every 10 minutes, right?

To get help around certain client
deliverables or proposals or specifics

like, why are we having this issue?

Why is this not getting
indexed, et cetera, et cetera.

So, um, to answer your question,
proficiency, high expertise,

not necessarily needed.

Doug: Perfect.

That makes a lot of sense.

And across probably most industries,
you will have some type of role where

you need to be able to be client facing.

and understand what's going on back
in house, but you don't have to be

able to do that work necessarily.

You have to know who to ask.

Like you said, you know, who to ask
the questions and know how to find

the information and have some of the
software skills to work with a client.

Exactly.

All right.

I'm going to pause here just for one.

Like I said, I could talk to you all
day, Jared, about, uh, Uh, 201 and

just the agency work and everything.

But we have to move on.

Although one day maybe I'll
come to San Diego and we can go

walk on the beach or something.

I'm not sure.

We'll figure it out.

That's it for part one with Jared
Bahman and check out part two.

We talk about building a personal brand.

And again, we could have talked
for a super long time on part two.

But we only had a little bit of time
and we actually went much longer than

what I intended to do and what we had
scheduled, but super cool to catch up

with Jared, always fun to chat with him.

I'll wrap it up here and just request
if you like the show, leave a review,

make sure you're subscribed wherever
you're consuming this telephone.

Just help spread the word.

If you have any suggestions on who I might
interview in the future, you can shoot me

an email feedback@rankingrevolution.com
to let me know.

And we'll catch you on the next episode.

Thanks a lot.