Ranking Revolution

Welcome to the ranking revolution
podcast, your go-to source for

strategies and ideas for SEO.

Organic growth and online business.

In this episode, we're continuing
our conversation with Victor.

he talks about how he built his agency
from scratch up to about 150 people.

We talk about the challenges,
the mistakes that he made, and

a few other things like that.

So, if you missed the first part,
we actually talk about gaming and

casino SEO, which is interesting.

I don't know much about it.

I've never done anything like that.

So it was, it was cool to
learn a little bit more.

We'll hop into the conversation today.

And be sure to check out the links
to head over to Victor stuff.

He has the agency of course, and
some other cool things going on.

So let's get to the episode now.

Doug: All right.

We're sitting down with Victor Karpenko.

Again, he's the founder
over at SEOproffee.

com.

And that's a, that's a marketing agency
with a focus on SEO and data driven SEO.

I talked to Victor not too long ago
about his casino affiliate, really side

of the business, but He also has this
150 person agency, 150 people is huge.

And he grew it from scratch.

From what I understand, we're
going to get into the details

about the origin of the agency.

We're going to talk about the
challenges for growing and some

tips and tricks for potentially
doing the same thing, although I.

No, from hiring a handful of people
in the past, 150 people is a, is

a lot of people to, to work with.

So anyway.

Victor, how's it going today?

I'm good.

How are you doing?

Great.

And we had a, we had an awesome
time chatting before when we were

talking casino affiliate marketing,
which was something I really

was not exposed to in the past.

So super enlightening for the people that
don't know you, can you just give like

a few words about how you got started
with SEO, just so they have like an

idea of how long you've been doing this,

Victor: Yeah.

So I'm doing SEO like 16 plus years.

It's not nothing to be proud of, you know,
I really like SEO and like, and I'm like

trying to create projects and be less
in routine, but more in a product and,

and, you know, just create and grow it.

So yeah.

16 years in SEO.

That's my experience.

Doug: Awesome.

And how did you get
started running an agency?

Victor: Yeah.

So like the original story I went
to After I started, I ranked my own

website that was selling domains.

I was trying to figure out
where people teach SEO.

So I found a local agency that hired me
as a SEO specialist at where I learned

some experience and I think this was my,
the only one job I worked, uh, like as a

SEO in the company as a hired employee.

Yeah.

And then I started my own agency, then
I ranked agency websites, started to

get leads and then I onboarded then I
started to provide development services

and that's where everything went wrong.

And eventually I sold my
agency, my first agency, and.

In 2012, I started SEO Profi as
a company, you know, but before

I started the blog, and this blog
got a lot of leads that was there.

Starting point for the SEO Profit Agency.

Doug: And you were just blogging
about your own experience just to

sort of like share your knowledge.

Yeah,

Victor: it was like, you know, the book
it was like about the blogging where

like they talk about how Microsoft went.

Like, they started to show all the
press process inside of the company.

And before people were thinking
Microsoft is like matrix, you know,

everyone in the suits, like it's evil.

Uh, and, but after they started this
blog, they Actually like show that

no, it's actually like real people,
normal people that working in this

corporation and everything is good.

And it also cool as cool story in this
book where the guy who was selling a

ties on, he was renting pretty expensive
place like for his shop in, in London.

And the prices went up and he like
closed the Like his office but he

started to blog about how to tie a tie.

How to like, how not, not, not how to
tie a tie, how to make a jacket, like,

you know, business jackets and whatever.

And because of the blog, he
just grew to a pretty good like

traffic and started to sell suits
everywhere he goes in the world.

So yeah, this is, was like starting
point just to write about like my

experience in SEO and like life
you, you, you can go SEO profit.

net in web archive and you can find
this blog there, like, you know,

Doug: interesting.

So, so many leads were coming in
that Victor, you couldn't help

yourself, but form another agency.

Is that kind of what happened?

Victor: Yeah, yeah.

I was selling leads in the beginning,
but then I realized I can handle

myself and do it better, you know?

So, yeah.

Doug: All right.

So when you made that decision,
what was your game plan?

Were you thinking, Hey,
I'm going to hire a team.

Were you doing some stuff yourself?

How did that look in the
early, say, first six months?

Victor: I didn't have a game plan.

I was just like selling to a client,
accounting client, and I had a team of

I guess five people in a small office in
Kiev and I was managing this team and at

night I was just checking what they did in
the, during the day I was talking with the

clients, accounting and trying to sell.

So it was like, hell, you know, one day
I remember when I decided to hire first

account manager in the company and first
sales manager cause I came to the meeting.

With the client and I dressed my you
know, shirt, uh, how do you say like

back, back, back, like, so it was it was

Doug: backwards inside out,

Victor: inside out.

Yeah.

I didn't even realize, you know,
like, so it was pretty tough, but

then step by step, I, I think.

First year we hired first sales
manager, first account manager.

So I pass like some responsibilities
to them just to account I didn't have

like clear KPIs and whatever with
them, but they still could talk to

them and they were the new SEO as well.

So it was easier, you know?

Doug: Okay.

And then.

In your story, in your origin story,
you're a superhero in this, by the

way, so in your origin story, you
didn't have a corporate job, right?

You just kind of started up, um, selling
domains and maybe you were at a SEO or

you worked as an SEO for a little while.

Go ahead.

Victor: When I was at work, when
I worked as SEO, they were paying

like 600 bucks, I guess, per month.

But when I started agency, I went
to like 10k, I guess, third month.

So like 10k and then it went
like more and more and more.

Yeah.

So, so it wasn't that hard cause like
it was easy to sell cause back then I

could actually guarantee the rankings.

It was before the Google penguin.

It's like, take this direct anchors
that many direct anchors with that many

links, optimize like basic stuff on
the page and just rank, you know, so.

Doug: So, and I'm just.

I'm thinking about like you growing
the team and you, you described it.

You were like, I hired a couple
folks and you were really overworked.

You were selling, you were checking over
the work, you were being a manager, you

were probably cleaning the bathrooms,
like you were doing everything right.

So did you have any mentors?

Did you have any experience?

As a manager before this?

Victor: No, I didn't, but
I had competitors and they

grew like way faster than me.

And we like, we're like usually like
sometimes going to lunch and some people

say I am boarded 200 new clients this
month and went like, plus this many

people, yeah uh, the actual normal SEO
profit starts from probably 2018 where.

Well, where we put processes in a place.

So it took us like six years
just bouncing around trying.

We actually grew to 40.

Like I guess to 60 people till 2018,
like it was full time in office.

So, yeah, so I was trying to manage it.

You know, it's like, you're going to
work, you have like file cells, sales

managers five accounting managers,
SEOs link building team, like, and

you just need to deliver the soul.

Like, you know, uh, so it was
basically a full time, like spending.

Running an agency.

Doug: Yeah.

Okay.

And just to make sure
I got the years right.

So 2012 is around the time you started it.

Six years of floundering around.

And then in 2018, you felt a
little bit more like grounded.

It was gradual,

Victor: right?

Yeah, it actually was, wasn't like this.

So in 2018, uh, one of my
partner, they joined the company.

Like, so they brought out like some
percentage of the company and They, they,

they know how to do financial stuff, how
to do like legal stuff, how to manage.

And basically from that point, I
learned, we learned a lot and we just

transformed from like, you know, one guy
agency who just push everyone around.

So like, you know, doing
And accounting as well.

But we, we had accounting people in the
company cause like, it was more than 150K.

Doug: So if, if I have this right, you
started the agency around 2012 or so,

and there were about six years of sort
of up and down, you were at the helm.

So what happened in 2018 that sort
of like made a big difference?

Victor: So, we got a partner
in our company, like, that

they are more on product side.

They, like, they are, they company
more like product affiliate company.

So, and they do understand processes like,
you know, financial, legal management.

Like how to structure everything, how
to make everything work, you know, it's

not chaos, it's actually responsible
people with team leads and whatever.

So, and we started like, we started
from finance, we hired a finance person,

then second finance person that was
like managing everything properly.

Then we structured teams.

Like, like we reevaluate KPIs, we like
cut some people that were like not good

like, at the time, you know, and step
by step we started to grow and be more

like we, now we even plan, you know,
we have like strategic session, we

plan next year, like we budget every
quarter, you know, like, so, and we

have people responsible for, like, this
is, For me, it was not eye opening.

I always wanted like to control
stuff, you know, like to, like, it's

only me that only understands this.

No one else can, can like do it better.

But eventually we started to hire people
better, you know, in specific, like, like

we have like right now, really good CEO.

We have Like that runs, uh,
like all the departments.

We, we have team, SEO team
lead, deputy SEO team lead.

They have different responsibilities.

You see, we have head of
content department, head of

link building department,
deputy link building department.

So, and they have their own KPIs.

They have have their own responsibilities.

That's why, like, when you have
a plan, Now I look at the company

as a as a business, it's leads,
conversion and lifetime value.

That's all.

So if the LTV is good, it
means our product is good.

So we deliver.

So clients staying with us, right?

If, if the leads that I drive is quality,
they convert and the conversion rate, it's

like a head of sales department, right?

So they have like their KPIs, how
they should work, what they should

test, like to onboard clients and
like with a higher conversion.

So.

Yeah,

Doug: got it.

Very interesting.

So with the partner who, who bought in, it
sounds like you were, you basically were

able to take some money off the table.

You gave up some

Victor: equity.

No, we didn't.

Like we put everything back to grow.

It was the, it was the point.

Doug: Yeah.

Okay.

Well, but I mean, like when
your partner joined, he or she,

um, bought into the company,

Victor: uh, like, yeah, like not
the main part, but some part, yeah.

Okay.

Doug: Okay.

That's fine.

Interesting.

So in the six years before
that, it was profitable.

You were doing pretty well, but it
seems like you were working a lot and

probably like stretched pretty thin.

Is that accurate?

Yep.

Yep.

Okay.

And the big thing, did the person have
experience in the corporate world or they

had experience as an operations person?

Victor: They have like, More like,
yeah, it's experience in corporate in

a big big companies and they like were
running pretty big product company

before they started their own company.

Yeah.

How did you meet them?

It's actually funny story.

Uh, Like I was helping to
one essay writing company.

It's like essay writing services it's
like pretty huge niche before AI hit

last year, but it's still pretty big
and I was Helping them for some time,

you know to promote the websites and
After we quit, I decided it's it's a

good idea Can be a cool strategy like
you find a job openings, like, for

example, like, like, I don't know,
someone is hiring like SEO specialist.

So I went to interview, I pass the
interview and I say, okay, when you

can start, I say, I'm sorry, I have
a, an agency, but I can take projects.

Yeah, that's how it all started.

So, and we ranked first
website for them pretty good.

And that's how it all got testimonial
and just, you know, they are overall

really good process, uh, process
oriented guys without bullshit who just

like do their thing and they succeed.

Doug: Yeah.

So.

Interesting.

Very cool.

And I'm just thinking of people out there.

There's a lot of folks in the audience
who maybe they have, you know, the

corporate experience or they have
operations experience, and there's a

lot of talented people in the SEO world
or in the content world or whatever,

but they don't have the operations.

And I hated my corporate job when I had
it, but I learned a lot of stuff about

hiring and processes and systems and not
recreating the wheel and just, you know,

Continuous improvement on projects versus
like you show up on a new project and

everyone's like what the fuck do we do?

Like I don't like they're starting
from scratch every time instead of

starting from like Halfway done where
you just plug in the inputs and then

you're good to go so Very interesting.

Well, let's, let's talk about some
of those early years and rewind.

Cause I think a lot of people
potentially are in that stage and they're

thinking, Hey, I want to scale up.

Talk about the trajectory
of hiring people.

So in the beginning it was just
you and maybe a couple of people.

So how did it grow over time?

Victor: I think till we had our first HR,
when we had 40 people on board already.

So I don't know how we were
hiring through recommendations.

Actually before 40 people, we had an HR
that was as a consultant help us to get to

interviews because and yeah, but back then
it was bad, you know, cause we did now we

have like values, company values, we do
assessment according to our values, right?

So it's already Means a lot.

Cause we know we are looking
like it doesn't matter.

A person like super smart.

If it, if it's not according to our
values, it's not going to work out, you

know, like at some period, you know,
like, so, but we want to like, we also

have LTV for employees, so I, I just
don't want them to work like, I don't

know, one year and go to our competitor
that pays twice, twice more than us.

And, you know, like, so, so back then
it was like, I guess a consultant HR and

our office manager was helping with that.

But after 40 people, we started
to we, we had an HR in house.

Doug: Okay.

And how, how long did it take
before you got to 40 people?

Victor: I think in 16, we
already had 40 people for sure.

I think more.

Yeah.

It's 16.

Yeah.

70.

Yeah, 40 people we have for sure.

Till 2016.

Yeah.

Doug: Alright.

And there's 150 people
now on the, on the team.

Yeah.

Plus.

Alright.

Wow.

That's a lot of folks.

And how many sort of like executives or
senior manager type folks do you have?

Victor: I don't know,
like, how many total?

Maybe like, yeah, like
11 to 12 team leads.

Okay.

So like on exact, it's like
seal seal level, maybe four.

Doug: And then, is it safe to assume
that you probably only meet with the

sea level people most of the time?

Victor: No, cause like my responsibility
right now, cause like after the strategic

station that was in December, like we like
align where are we, what are we working

on or like what goal and how can I help?

So most of the operational
work is not on me.

Like, like nothing.

I like do not communicate.

I do, I do quality assess
quality assurance, right?

Going to a new way.

Once in a while, I go in the project.

Dive deep and just like, you know,
try to make SEOs do better stuff.

But most of the time I work on the
software, like search analytics, that

actually is the product, you know, like,
cause, uh, like why we started to build,

cause every time you hire someone, they
have like different level of expertise.

And sometimes, especially in Ukraine now
like some people want like really high

salaries, but they don't know anything.

You know, like, so, so, so we have this
like I took some smart people that I

know, like we consult with a lot of people
who I think like really good in SEO and

still consulting like with many others.

And we just put all their knowledge in
the tool, you know, so, so it's not,

uh, Like, for example, if you know the
processes, it's like LMS, like learning

management system, where you can learn
how to do keyword research, answer

the questions, but it's not for sure
this person will actually, you know,

know how to do this keyword research.

In the tool, we make people
do step by step things.

So even if you just put junior
specialist in the tool, in the end of

the day, this specialist can become
senior and how he or she execute.

Transcribed You know, so yeah,
so this is my like main thing

that I'm doing right now.

And probably we will do some marketing
more because we, we are organizing a

legal first legal SEO conference in
Miami will be in December this year.

Like it's SEO for lawyers, right?

So like pretty tough niche, right?

And we have.

Not the worst as background, you know,
to compete there and like to share some

knowledge for other folks that can bring
better with their agencies or projects.

So yeah, so basically tools and
marketing like that's where.

That's your main

Doug: focus.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

So continuing to go back to sort of
the early days, what are some of the

mistakes or things that you would
do different when you're looking

back, say the first six years or

Victor: so?

So many, it's like, you know, when you
imagine like an agency, it's like low

margin business where like, imagine
it's a plane and you hold two wings

with your hands and it's burning.

It's like pretty much like how it
looks like everything can go wrong.

You know, like we had.

So much like different stuff.

I don't know.

It's ups and downs for sure.

It's never like, Oh, you grow, grow.

And like, everything is super successful.

Sometimes like a team can fuck up and
you lose the client or like, something

else happened, but it's like, in
terms of revenue, it's ups and downs

like, and now we can, we understand
numbers, you know, and what I would do

different, I, for sure, in the beginning.

Like if I have an opportunity,
I would start with the people

who already like past this way
and know the system that works.

So like, how, like how to close,
like what most SEOs don't like to

do, like operational stuff, right?

Like, but where things get done, like,
financial First of all, then like

sometimes legal and management, like
if you like structure these things you

just And if you have right people on
the places, like good project manager

or like head of project manager, right.

That's like manage the team and talks
to the clients and like, you know,

and write SEOs that I would look first
for the team members, like, you know,

like I would try to find someone who
is better than me or like, at least at

the same level where we, you know, and

Doug: got it.

Okay.

Okay.

So.

Back in those days, because we're
talking, you know, seven, eight

years ago, would our SEOs better now?

Are people more qualified
now than they were back then?

Victor: Yeah.

Yeah.

So, uh, I, I can't even tell like
on, cause we host it's like go west

if you translate from Ukrainian
to like English conference.

And first time when we launched
it in 2013, people were asking

like, maybe, you know, Three,
four years, the same questions.

How many links do I buy?

What criteria I use?

Like, how do I like do redirects?

How do I move my website?

Should I do on a full folder on the
sub domain and like all the same stuff.

Now people like grew pretty good.

Like most of the company,
people became managers.

It's a lot of companies that have
like 500, 1000 people, like it's

a lot of product companies that we
have, like, it's software, like,

casinos brokers and whatever.

So, and.

SEOs that were back then now like little
bit better level of understanding and

all the process and so, yeah, I think
for me for last conference, I actually

saw that no more stupid questions.

I mean, they are not stupid.

They are normal question from the
normal uh, you just like have this prof.

Professional deformation, like, right.

You, you just can't do, you don't want
to deal with this, you know, with this.

Doug: Yeah.

After so many years of answering the
same thing, you're like, I want to answer

something different, but I mean, it
represents a maturity in the industry,

I think, where the baseline knowledge
is much higher and when small businesses

that didn't know anything about it.

Anything about SEO before, and they're
asking like some more sophisticated

questions, like everyone is just
a little bit smarter about it.

Okay.

So we talked about a few mistakes
and the challenges over the years.

What's coming up next, say in the next,
you know, so 12 or 18 months or so,

you mentioned the, the law conference
coming up in Miami, uh, what, what

else is on the schedule for y'all?

I

Victor: don't know, like achieve our,
our goals and try, try to, uh, write

my newsletter, at least start, you
know, like in terms of content that I

can share, but overall it's just work.

Like I, I, I usually have like,
from six to 10 calls per day.

So like, that's what I do, you know,
just talk and make sure my, uh,

team leads do, do stuff and execute.

All

Doug: right.

So just keep it on moving forward.

What is the right person?

for the conference that you're
going to organize for December?

Victor: The right person, like I'm
still looking people from directories,

like, for example, find low just
or like different directories.

I'm still looking.

Lawyers, like for example Michigan auto
law, like actually from the law firm that

can like, or like Morgan and Morgan, like
I tried to reach to some guys, but like,

it's still without like, results, but
like, we have like agency owners we have.

Affiliate guy who is making money
on the affiliate side already.

So it's about eight speakers
already that we agreed to.

I hope so.

It's still, because we planned the
date on March and it was like really

like, I think I was in a rush.

It was really.

Spontaneous decision to make.

So we just decided to move and it's
okay if we move it till December.

Yeah.

And we are looking for someone
from a product from affiliate or

from directory or from agency.

If this person has like case study
to share or, or, you know, like

some, something real and valuable.

Cause like my main goal is just,
you know, like if you come to

a conference, you want to get.

Something that you can implement and
get some ideas and get better out

of this, you know, not just wasting
time, you know, Oh and only networking

Content is like the main part.

Okay,

Doug: and those are the people that
you would want as speakers, right?

Right describe right and
what about the the attendees?

Who do you want to be?

Uh,

Victor: It's lawyers, mostly people
who, um, it's not lawyers, it's

marketers who work in a law firms.

It's also agencies cause you know, it's
people looking for backlinks everywhere,

you know, for lawyers, it's like and
it's affiliate marketers too, like, cause

affiliate marketers look how to drive more
leads for lawyers, you know, like, and

Lawyers, agency owners, affiliates and
people from the directories and people who

want to start in the Law SEO niche just to
understand how hard it is or like what's

Doug: okay cool And that makes sense.

I mean it sounds as people probably
know the The legal industry has a

lot of money floating around there.

So it's a really good
interest industry to be in.

The downside is of course, the
lawyers that you have to be around,

but I think it's a fair trade off.

So hopefully you're not a lawyer, Victor.

I hope I didn't offend you.

They're fun people.

They like to drink usually
from what I understand.

So, all right, Victor,
this has been awesome.

People should be sure they check
out the other interview that we

did where we talk about casino SEO
and casino affiliate marketing.

But where should people find you?

We'll link up so they can get to it.

But where should they go?

Victor: It's a good hint.

You just can go to Google.

Can you go just right now?

Just google.

com?

Yeah, let's see.

So type casino SEO agency.

Yeah.

So it's supposed to be
high roller that agency.

Doug: Oh, I see that ranks
number three over here.

So, um, yeah, it

Victor: depends on there.

Yeah.

And in the lower, you can see
by SEO profit, you know, so

yeah, in terms of casino, like
you just can go to SEO profit.

com or, or in terms of like
talking about like some.

SEO or just connect it's datadrivenseo.

com.

Sometimes maybe it will be
a newsletter or LinkedIn.

Doug: All right.

Very good.

Yeah.

Everyone should check out that newsletter.

Victor, you got to start writing
for that thing on a regular basis.

Don't leave us hanging out there and
hopefully, uh, we'll catch up soon.

Thanks a lot, man.

Thank

Victor: you.

Thank you.

All right.

Thanks a lot to Victor.

Be sure to check the links
in the description so you can

connect with them elsewhere.

Pretty cool story overall.

And hopefully we can get an
update from him in the future

to see how things are going.

If you have a second, if you have
a chance to help out the show,

I would greatly appreciate it.

Make sure you're subscribed
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And I really appreciate it.

That's it for today.

Have a good one and we'll
catch up on the next episode.