Ranking Revolution

Welcome to the ranking revolution
podcast, your go-to source for strategies

and ideas for SEO, organic growth,
content creation and online business.

I'm your host, Doug Cunnington today.

I'm going to chat with Barb David's
and this is going to be a two-parter

like many of the interviews that I do.

And we're going to first
start talking about.

Analytics and analyzing data
and maybe how you interpret it.

And help your clients do a
better job taking action on it

and just really sharing some of
the results with your clients.

And the second part, we're going to
talk about the transition from being

a corporate employee and a marketing
department to running her own business.

And she's actually a digital nomad.

So we get into some of
those details as well.

And I mean, it's super interesting
hearing someone from the corporate

world, they have to figure out how
they're going to be a solo preneur, which

is what I've sort of adopted myself.

So we get into all those
details and let's get to the

interview with Barbara right now.

Doug: Barb Davids is a digital marketing
coach and consultant with over 20 years

in the digital marketing industry.

She transitioned from running digital
marketing departments and windowless

offices to Mountain View offices,
helping small business owners get

more out of their digital marketing.

Today, we're going to talk about
analyzing and interpreting data from

specifically the Google search console.

And the thing is sometimes
data is misleading.

So you have to go a few layers deeper
to understand what's really going on.

Then you need to understand what your
goals are and what's driving business

and revenue for you or your client.

So Barb, welcome.

How, how are you doing

Barb: today?

Thanks, Doug.

I am doing good.

I'm looking at the mountain
view, so it can't get any better.

I don't think

Doug: I love it.

What, what mountains are you looking at?

Where are you located?

Barb: I'm based in Las Vegas.

I'm actually a digital nomad right now,
but I came back here for a couple of

months and I'm in this place called.

Lake Las Vegas, which is kind of
on the east side of the valley.

And it's, I mean, there's like
literally a mountain right there.

It's really cool.

So

Doug: I love it.

Yeah.

I have, uh, I don't have mountain views
from the basement studio down here,

but if I, if I go outside, I can see.

The front range of the Rocky Mountains.

And it's awesome every day when I go out
to walk the dog multiple times a day.

It's just, there's something to it.

Not everybody loves mountains and maybe
the ocean or water is the thing for other

folks, but mountains really do it for me.

And I'm glad you got
out of the windowless.

Corporate environment.

So quick intro, um,
what's your background?

You know, you've been doing some
digital marketing stuff for years.

Can you just briefly talk about
how you transitioned from, it

sounds like more of a corporate
environment to a solo operator?

Barb: Absolutely.

So I was sitting in, yeah, windows,
windowless offices quite a bit.

For a long time, mostly in the furniture
industry and doing digital marketing,

running the digital marketing department.

So it was, um, overseeing like
product stuff, overseeing Google ads,

overseeing anybody that we hired in.

It was usually just me and then we
would hire people in, um, for whatever

reason, we didn't have like really large
marketing departments in the furniture

industry and they were really kind of
behind the times for a long, long time.

So I was always fighting with.

Not literally but figuratively fighting
with a lot of the owners trying to get

them to buy into digital marketing like
this is what You need to do but then of

course as soon as something came along
and they're like Oh, we got to do this

because it's shiny like it was Just,
um, very challenging the whole time.

I think trying to have to state what
could work or what should work and

trying to get buy-in all the time.

And around the same time that I started
doing photography for myself, I was in

Las Vegas and doing fitness photography.

I started meeting other photographer.

and trying to do SEO
just for my photography.

And I was getting confused even
being in the industry, like what

am I supposed to do for as a
photographer to get my website seen?

And I thought, well, if it's confusing for
me and I'm in the industry, how confusing

could it be for photographers who don't
know anything about digital marketing?

So I started working with other
photographers and just kind of

networking and things like that.

And about the same time I started
getting in my head, I don't want

to work behind a desk anymore.

I'm pretty done with this.

I just wanted to be able to travel
all over, work anytime, anywhere,

so that I could be with family,
friends, and still make an income.

And so that kind of all snowballed into
doing some work for some photographers

and then, you know, Really funny story.

It's kind of maybe similar to some
other people too, but I ended up

transferring jobs to another job that
would allow me to work from home.

So I'd have less drive time so I
could spend more time on the business.

Well then I got fired from it.

And the funny thing was is I didn't,
I got fired for something I didn't

even, wasn't even responsible for.

So I was like, okay, universe,
I get what's happening.

No problem.

Here I go.

So then I started my business
and um, it's been about almost,

it'll be five years in November.

Doug: I want to dig just a
little bit deeper before we

get into the analytics stuff.

You mentioned that it was a little
challenging figuring out how to do

the SEO for your photography website.

Did you ever crack the nut there?

What dots did you have
to connect from your.

You know, your, I guess your old skills
or the skills you had in a certain context

versus doing SEO for a photography site.

Barb: I think what code I cracked
is that I didn't have to follow

all the advice that was out there.

I think a lot of advice that's out
there now being in the industry, I can

say this emphatically is you don't need
to do everything you need to do what's

right for what you're working on and
whatever resources you have available or.

what your goal is.

But I think a lot of times in the digital
marketing industry, we overthink things

and we get so convoluted in the details
that you have to do this thing that way.

And it doesn't have to be like, for
example, um, let's say the page title and

it needs to be so many characters long.

It has to be this, it has to be that.

No, it doesn't.

It just needs to resonate with
the person who's looking at

the search result the most now.

Yeah, it's great to put the title
in there or the keyword in there.

However, It just needs to, it doesn't need
to be a certain specific way all the time.

Like as some people are going to
totally yell at me for saying that,

and I don't care, but it doesn't
need to be the exact way there's like

20, 000 ways to do any one thing.

Doug: The other problem, and it's
gotten worse, I think, as more people

are Creators are out there and there's
more platforms to create on but youtube

is where I spend a lot of time And a
product will come out or some strategy

will become popular and then more and
more people talk about it We're in an

echo chamber a little bit and then it
seems like everyone's talking about this

thing You have to do and it turns out You
know, it makes up like one percent of the

results or something or you could improve
by one percent, which is not nothing But

it's like should you be spending like
40 percent of your trying time trying to

Improve this 1 percent and then if you
stack that on like four or five things

and if your craft in your job should be
like Doing photography and you're like

wasting all this time trying to do digital
marketing to get people to your website

And then you're wasting time on these
things that like barely move the needle.

It gets really frustrating You don't
know what to focus on and everyone

is talking about like this one or two
things which may or may not work at All

do you have anything to add to that?

No, no real question.

No,

Barb: I fully agree on that

Doug: and I'm part of the problem
I mean, I'm Publishing, publishing

the videos I'm complaining about.

But with, with that said, when we were
going back and forth trying to come up

with an idea, you had a very specific
situation where you were working with your

copywriter and you were trying to analyze
some data from Google search console.

So can you lay out the scenario?

Cause I think people run into
this all the time, whether they

realize it or not, and then we'll
kind of unravel the whole thing.

But what was this scenario?

Barb: I have a client and we were doing
a content audit and we were taking

a look at in particular a keyword
that came up that had dropped in

ranking and, or wasn't getting a lot.

I can't remember the specific off the
top of my head right now, but when we

went to look at it, we're like, Oh,
this, this page could be looked at to

see if we could do any better with it.

And then when we went in
to look at it, it was.

Over the time span of, I think it was
like three months, it was sporadically

showing up on Google search console.

And so when it does that, of course,
when you look at it in its entirety,

it looks like a certain number.

But when you go in, let's say it
was on page one or ranking page,

ranking position number two.

And you're like, Oh, that's kind of cool.

Let's go see what the words
are that it's coming up for.

And then you go in there and you're
like, Oh, there's an orange dot.

Oh, there's an orange dot.

It's like, it's not even a
consistent line across the top.

So that was, Super interesting.

And it also makes it difficult to, if
you're looking at a lot of keywords

or a lot of pages and you kind of have
to go in one by one to take a look and

see if that's the case, or at least
I don't know of any other way to do

it in mass, but, um, that was the
specific scenario that we ran into.

Okay,

Doug: and I'm going to repeat it back just
because we're talking about graphs and I

think, you know, maybe if you want to you
can share some of the graphs or something

similar on your website and we'll link up
to that so people can take a quick look

to visualize exactly What we're talking
about here, but essentially we have a,

a small data set, but we don't know it's
a small data set because we see, Oh, the

certain keyword is ranking, uh, like 4.

3.

And you're thinking, great, we're
going to go take a look at it, but

really it's only shown up like five
times over the course of three months.

And.

You can't draw any real conclusions
because it's the data set is too small.

Did I is that another way to look at it?

Barb: Yes And actually I'm gonna step
back on a second to say We weren't

in Google Search Console in the
beginning or wasn't in there first.

I had actually looked at it through
Google Sheets I use that Google Sheets and

now and now analytics for Google Sheets
something like that the extension and I

pulled it in that way so I could see it
and I could do a Conditional formatting

so I can see Uh, red, yellow, green
based off of high, low kind of thing.

So I could quickly see what's happening.

And then that's when I found out about it.

And then I went over to Google search
console to see, Oh, what's going on.

And that's how I found out about

Doug: it.

Okay.

So when you first looked at the data,
what's your initial impression from

it before you went to go dig deeper?

And then what, what did you discover
when you actually went to search console?

Yes.

Barb: It makes sense.

Yes, exactly.

So it looked like it
was ranking very well.

I think in this particular case, I think
it was the up one, not the down one.

But so when I went to go look for
what keywords were actually showing

up for that page, that's when I
went in to Google search console and

just looked at the page and that's
when I saw the sporadicness of it.

So I was like, Oh, the number
I was given wasn't even.

wasn't even accurate.

So I can't say that it was ranking,
whatever it was, position two, something

on the first page, because it was just
like, oh, it showed up one day and

it didn't for the rest of the days.

Oh, it showed up another day.

It didn't for the other days.

So that meant that we actually had
to take a look at the content and see

how we could do something different
to make it show more consistently.

Okay.

Doug: And perfect segue, although before
we get there, are your clients in, in

the analytics and like would they, Yeah.

Barb: No, they, no, they
don't like analytics at all.

They think it's fascinating when
I bring the information to them.

I think that's the other thing too.

A lot of.

There's still a lot of agencies out
there that will, you know, quote,

monitor stuff, or they'll send like
a dashboard without any context, and

I think that's very difficult to the
business owner to know, okay, what

are you doing, what's, what's working.

So when I bring this information,
I try to, I don't give them

like the stuff that I look at.

I give them a dashboard.

I'm like, okay, here, we're ranking
for this one, but just so you know.

It's still sporadic and we're trying
to get it and I'm really transparent

with that saying, okay, we're
trying to make it more consistent.

So it shows up all the time
at that page one level.

Um, but otherwise if I didn't bring them
the analytics, they totally wouldn't

even probably go into any reporting.

Okay.

Doug: Gotcha.

Well, it reminds me of like my
earlier days and The reason why

I asked that is I was like, Oh,
maybe some clients would hop in.

They're like, Oh, wow,
this looks really good.

And they come to you and they're like, Oh,
we should, we're doing something right.

Or we're doing something wrong.

Let's take some action on it.

But really they don't have the
right amount of information

to draw a conclusion.

And I was going to say, I remember.

Exactly.

I would go to search console and
I would see like, Oh, this, this

query it's showing up is like a,
you know, it's ranking like 1.

2.

Fantastic.

And then I look at the number of
impressions and I see it's like 14.

So it was just being tested.

And then.

No one went to it and then it
drops off the face of the earth

for whatever, three, four months.

Um, but, but I didn't know that then
until I started looking at the data.

So that's one other way, like if
you're in search console, take a look

at the number of impressions and you
can see if you have like a real amount

of data to make any evaluation from.

So, okay, well back into your segue.

What, what do you do with that data?

So you're like, okay, how can we
get it to consistently show up?

So how did you coach this client?

Barb: Well, I actually, this client,
I actually do the work for them.

So I ended up working with their
copywriter specifically and we

try to brainstorm different ways.

We are actually in the process right now.

This was actually a newer,
um, A newer scenario.

So we haven't talked about
what exactly we're going to do.

That's later this month, but we will
sit and talk about okay What words

can we include on the page that maybe
we haven't that might be helpful?

We take a look at other things on
the first page and sometimes even

second page just depending on Maybe
energy level because that's a lot

of pages to look through but we take
a look and see Okay, what do other

pages have that maybe we don't?

Or what do we have that they don't?

And looking at like how
many images are on there.

Like going through and specifically
visually going through.

And I know there's tools that do this.

However, I am very much looking at
Loving the idea that I can get a visual

of the page itself because that also
tells me, okay, if it doesn't look

credible, I'm probably not even going
to care about that page because nobody's

going to, in their right mind, going
to click from that or buy from that.

Like it's not going to, it's not
a true competitor in my mind.

If it's like a crappy spammy looking one.

So especially in this case
too, it's a dental client.

So I feel like very much so that
depending on the topic, of course

it's going to be, they're going to
need to really Get attracted to that

page before they're going to trust
them with whatever information it is.

So, then we'll talk about it and then,
uh, the copywriter will rewrite stuff

and then we'll put it up there and then
we'll wait for an undetermined amount

of time, whatever we feel like, and
then we'll go for there from there.

Doug: Does that interval of time
depend on the client or some other,

like, what's the starting point?

Like, what's your first suggestion?

So,

Barb: Absolutely at least two weeks
and it's going to vary, I never, I

try not to say it depends, but it does
vary based off of what the changes are.

So if I'm just doing page titles
and descriptions, I'll wait at least

two weeks for anything before I
decide, okay, do I feel good about

has happened or hasn't happened?

Do I need to wait later?

However, there was on a podcast somewhere
I was listening and somebody was talking

about the Google Raiders guidelines.

about some information that I hadn't
heard before, and it was very eye

opening in terms of, okay, if I make
a change today, it might not show up

for like a year, maybe even two years.

It all depends on where Google
is in their whole Thank you would

What do you want to call it?

Their whole cycle, right?

So they do a algorithm change all the time
and some of them are bigger than others.

And what happens is they have those
Google Raider quality guidelines

and those are real people.

Some of them are going to websites and
saying, okay, this meets the criteria.

This doesn't meet the criteria.

And then they take all of that
information, they send it over to

Google and then Google, decides whether
or not maybe to do anything about it.

And then they either put it in the next
Google app, the next algorithm update,

or maybe it goes in the next one.

There's no like set way.

So depending on all of that,
like how do you even know how

long you would have to wait?

So now I feel like I've kind of
changed my stance a little bit.

I think it has to be at least two weeks.

However, for some of the bigger
changes, I will wait because

I have seen pages take off.

After doing nothing to them, when
they publish, we don't do any updates.

And then two years later, it
all of a sudden just pops off.

With no changes.

So it's almost like, okay, well,
how much patience do I have?

I want to try something else
again, or do I just want to wait?

. Doug: And just to set the stage,
right now we're like one weekend to

a major Google update, March of 2024.

So we're not going to talk
about that too much because, uh,

everything will be out of date.

And in a couple of weeks, you'll
probably, but Google updates

are rolling out all the time.

So like right now you say, ah,
like two weeks, but like, we

don't even know because like,
there's an update rolling out.

We don't know what it's going to impact.

This one is.

More systems than normal.

So kind of volatile, which it's an
impossible question to, to really

know the answer to, because like you
said, it could be a couple of weeks.

If there's an update going on,
if there's no update going on,

it could be a couple of years.

Who knows?

So, give it time, is the idea.

Let's see, we have another note here and
I'll just kind of set the stage and then

you could talk about it a little bit.

So you sent over some pre show notes
and then said, Oh, if you're getting a

report, this is traffic is up by 237%.

Ask yourself about the timeframe,
the channel, and is it generating

leads or sales or whatever?

So can you talk a little bit about that?

Barb: Yes.

I think it's a little deceiving
sometimes when people just

throw out reports and it has.

Like say 237 percent increase, especially
when you look at the hard numbers and

then all of a sudden that is, I'm not
going to do the math that fast, but

if it's like two leads to 10 leads,
okay, that's might be a ton percentage,

but in reality that's just two to 10.

And for most small businesses,
not all of them, but for most

of them, that's just not a lot.

Like that's just a very minor amount.

So I think it's important
to look at the, the, the raw

numbers, not just the percentage.

Thanks.

And then also ensuring that you're really
looking at whether or not you're going

over last week, last month, last year.

There was that whole time
during 2021, 2022, everybody

was like, Oh, we're up so much.

Yeah.

Yay.

But 2020 had like zero things.

So it's kind of all relative
to whatever you're looking at.

And especially if you're a
seasonal Business like that

could make a difference.

So I think it's important to
really take a look at that.

Also just the timeframe itself.

I think when you have a longer
window, you have a better picture

than if you're just looking, say at
one day, because all of the numbers,

no matter what you're looking at.

Google Analytics, Google Search
Console, everything fluctuates

so much in most scenarios.

So

Doug: perfect in quick tip for content
creators, you can create sensational

headlines by going from, you know,
two leads to eight or whatever.

You have a great big percentage
and then you could make it look

like a great headline out there.

But the point is, is perfect
here, especially with seasonality.

You can remove some of the
seasonality by looking year over year.

So at least you're comparing like the
correct month to the correct month

versus like January and February to
November and December, where for a

lot of businesses, those are going to
be like a lot more leads, a lot more

sales, if you're in a retail space.

Barb: I think we also have as a, as people
doing the reporting for the clients or

for other people, I think we have like
a responsibility to be clear about that.

I still have some people that I've worked
with, with reporting and they talk about

a certain number over here, but I don't
really give a shit about that number.

I care about this number.

And because of that.

It's based off of whatever the goals are.

So for example, like with Google
ads, if somebody says, Oh, I have

a really low cost per acquisition
or I have a really high cost per

acquisition, I technically don't care.

I that's their deal.

That's how they manage it.

That's fine.

But what I care about is leads,
the actual hard number of leads.

So if that number is not
going up, I don't really care.

Personally, as a, as a person who's
on the reporting reading side, um,

how that works, like just go do what
you got to do, but give me leads.

That's it for part one.

So please check out part two with
Barbara, where we talk about her

transition from a corporate gig to a
solo per newer in her coaching program.

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