Ranking Revolution

Welcome to the ranking revolution
podcast, your source for strategies

and ideas for SEO, organic growth,
content creation and business.

I'm Doug.

Cuttington your host today?

I get to talk to one of my friends.

Ricky Casper.

One of the founders of income school.

And we talk about two main topics.

Like many of the interviews I've divided
this longer conversation into two parts.

So this first part, we talk about
content sites and Ricky start.

And it kind of blends into working
with AI, how Ricky uses AI.

And dealing with Google algorithm updates.

Like a few of the episodes I recorded
this before the March, 2224 update.

And a lot of times, particularly
in this interview, I referenced

the helpful content update and
perhaps an upcoming update.

That would correct.

Helpful content or change things.

That update did come along
and came along in March, 2020

for spam update core update.

There were a lot of manual penalties.

And the unfortunate thing
is I recorded some episodes

before it started rolling out.

So some of the conversation you have
to imagine that we did record this

in like earlier mid February or so.

It took a little while for me to get
this episode out, The algorithm update

surprised us by being a major, huge, giant
algorithm update coming out in March.

And I caught a cold along
the way, lost my voice.

Anyway, I got a million excuses.

The point is if you hear us referencing
things, not considering the March

update is because we didn't know the
March update was coming out because we

recorded this in February So without
further ado, we can get to the episode

and be sure to check out part two.

If you like where this
conversation is going.

Doug: I'm pumped today to
talk to one of my buddies.

I haven't talked to him in a pretty
long time, but this is Ricky Kessler

and he's a internet entrepreneur, an
influencer, the co founder of income

school, and he's helped numerous others
become financially independent by

helping them create online businesses.

He has a pretty crazy background, which.

Surprisingly, a lot of it aligns
with some of the stuff I've done.

Not exactly, but he has
worked in a research lab.

He's been an engineer at
a manufacturing plant.

He's worked as a marketing analyst.

He has an MBA and he's worked as a project
manager and then a product manager, and I

was a PM and I have an engineering degree.

So I think, you know, there's
some parallels and it's funny how.

We ended up in a much different
area doing marketing, which I was a

horrible communicator for many years.

Some still say that I'm a horrible
communicator, but welcome Ricky.

How's it going

Ricky: today?

It's going great.

Thanks, Doug.

That's great intro.

I appreciate that.

You got

Doug: it.

Well today we're gonna talk about
Content sites niche sites authority

sites and you and I have been in this
world for a little while You know close

to a decade for me and we'll get into
your background a little bit But one

thing that I think is interesting is,
you know, both of us, we started sites.

We had some interest in affinity to
it, and then we started teaching and

we became, you know, in air quotes,
influencers, we have a podcast,

YouTube channel, we created online
courses in kind of a sticky area of the

internet, make money online, which I
think some people do it the right way.

Some people that do it the wrong way.

And then.

The interesting part in the audience
for this show is, you know, SEO pros

and people in the industry, people that
attend conferences and stuff like that.

And they're, they're deep into it.

And oftentimes we do see that people
in the industry are very technically

proficient, but they haven't
been able to maybe build a site.

So there's a really cool overlap and, and.

There's some territorial
stuff going on too.

Were we going to be able
to dig into the weeds?

Cause you and I, I mean,
probably I don't necessarily.

Consider myself an SEO.

I'm more of a marketer.

So let's get into some of your
background, but that's, that's kind of

laying the stage and we're going to get
into how things have changed so much.

And I feel my sort of lack of SEO chops.

I could tell that the SEOs are.

You know, they've been doing
things a little bit differently,

and they have a different view on
some of the recent updates in 2023

helpful content and otherwise.

So Ricky, when did you get
started working online?

Yeah,

Ricky: I started early 2015.

So I'm at about nine years now.

And I mean, my experience before that with
computers online, and, you know, a little

bit of programming and stuff, there was
that, but, you know, digital marketing,

content marketing, any of that started
early 2015 with, uh, With an invitation

from a good friend from high school who
had been blogging for a while at that

point, but That's where I got started.

Doug: And is it safe to say
you pretty much didn't know

anything about it in 2015?

Ricky: Oh yeah, I, I mean, I made
all the same mistakes as every,

every beginner at that point.

Doug: Perfect.

Okay.

So I could tell by looking at, you
know, the intro that we have for you

here, you're a, you're a good learner.

You seem to be able to pick
things up in a lot of engineering.

project management comes around
to, you know, finding a problem,

closing the gap and just kind of
making some forward progress here.

So you figured it out.

You eventually became very
proficient, um, an expert in the area.

Talk just a little bit about starting
income school and what the idea

was behind that and any goals that
maybe you had in the early days.

Ricky: Yeah.

You know, um, Um, it's funny because I
went to school for engineering and, you

know, engineers for the most part aren't
really entrepreneurs, but while I was

still in college, I kind of got the bug.

I had a roommate and cousin
who was a business major and he

took me to these, uh, Business
competitions they had on campus.

And I'd watch these people
presenting their business plans and

making pitches to angel investors.

And I was like, this is cool.

This is exciting.

And so I went into, uh, the
engineering world, finished my degree

and everything, but with fully.

Planning to get an MBA, you know,
maybe work up through management

and stuff, but really like from the
very beginning, I always was doing

something on the side trying to figure
out like, you know, what's my thing?

What could I do on the side?

So, you know, while this is happening, my
one of my like closest friends from high

school, uh, Jim Harmer, he had been going
to law school And started his side thing

and he was, he was doing photography for
fun, but he started blogging about it.

And at the time, they're just, I mean,
this was a while ago there, you know,

niche websites and, and I mean, it was
not really talked about very much yet.

And so there were a few people
talking about it, mostly just

blogging about it at that time.

And anyway, so he was learning from people
like Pat Flynn in his early days of just

the things that were working for him.

little, he had these little wins here and
there, like just kind of figuring stuff

out till the point where he was about
to graduate from law school and realized

that he was now making more as a blogger
than he was going to make as a lawyer.

And he didn't really like being a lawyer.

Uh, you know, he does his internship
and he's like, I don't really like this.

So, anyway, he makes use of his law
degree now and then just mostly for

our benefit or now for his benefit.

But anyway, he, he'd been
doing this for a while.

So he decided to kind of test out his
approach and see how it would work.

He bought a couple of sites.

He built a couple of new sites and reached
the point where he's like, you know what?

I, I have an approach to this that
works and I think it's repeatable.

I've done it a few times now.

I want to teach it.

So he starts this blog and a podcast
and gets a few months in and realizes.

This is a lot because it's full time
thing was still that photography site

and he's like, I, I need a partner.

I need someone who's smart, who
works hard who can learn and is

keen of you to pick that up, Doug.

I think, you know, when, if people
ask me like, what do you think is

your kind of your unique talent
or the thing that you're best at?

And I'm like, well, learning
stuff, which, which makes me like.

Never the best at probably any one
thing, but I like learning and I'm good

at it and I learned things quickly.

So, he pulled, he pulled me in or
invited me and I, at the time it

was a side thing for both of us.

We thought, we'll make
some money on the side.

Maybe someday this could be
a full time kind of thing.

And and that's what it was.

I mean, I was living in Texas at the
time, working just finishing my MBA and

there's a lot of things that sort of
happened That, uh, we're very fortunate.

One of those things was just a few
months later, I graduated with my MBA

and then I got laid off from my job.

And part of me was just thrilled because
I was dying to move back home to Idaho.

And that's where Jim was.

And, and also because the company that I
worked for had helped sponsor this MBA.

And I had this like contract, I was
locked in to work for them for at least

two more years as a underpaid MBA.

So, uh, instead I got to go find a
brand new job, working for a different

company who moved me back to Idaho.

And you know, that was fantastic.

So I did that.

It took a few months where
Jim and I both just kind of.

Took a break because I was moving,
um, Jim ended up moving closer to

where I was actually, um, just they
moved around every few years and, um,

and we got started and it started.

It's just like.

I'm trying to learn everything I can.

I'm writing blog posts
during my lunch breaks.

Um, and just trying to sort of catch up.

Right.

Meanwhile, Jim and I would get together
one night a week to create something,

some kind of some content together.

Um, and that's kind of.

What happened?

And we did that for a while.

And after a bit, we, we took what he had
done and all the things that worked best.

And we, and we systematized it.

There's the engineer in me.

It's like, let's turn this into a
process that could be repeatable.

Like we're here to teach people.

Let's do that.

And, um, and we created a product.

Very simple.

We called it niche site school.

60 steps.

Here you go.

And, uh, you know, that kind
of started out slow, picked

up a little bit over time.

And, uh, we started making videos on
YouTube, just again, creating more

content on just other blogs, continuing
to test everything we were doing.

And then, uh, After we'd done that for
a little while, we, uh, we reached a

point where we're like, you know what,
we can make this a lot better now that

we've seen what's working for people.

What's not, we see what sort of
questions they come back to us with

and we turned it into what we have
now, which is called project 24.

That's a full membership with
a community and everything.

Um, and.

We launched that and right
after that launched, I realized

I don't need that job anymore.

And so I got to leave
that and do it full time.

So there's kind of the still
kind of long, but much shortened

version of those few years.

And it was, it was about
three years from 2015 to 2018.

Um, it was early 2018 that we
launched project 24 and I was

done with the corporate world.

Doug: Okay.

So it was 2018 when you left completely.

Okay.

Yeah.

Cool.

I didn't realize you got the layoff too.

I got laid off in 2015 and
I was like, this is great.

So I couldn't

Ricky: be more thrilled.

That's the same year I
got laid off too then.

Yeah.

It was like, awesome.

Thank you.

Doug: Yeah.

Cause I don't think I would have had the
initiative to quit because the salary

was like, nothing was bad enough to quit.

It wasn't great, but it wasn't bad enough.

And it, which is a, it's
a rough spot to be in.

So.

2018, it was kind of, I feel
like 2017, 2018, maybe the

heyday, maybe creeping into 2019.

I was selling a course
at the time as well.

And I know that for me, those were sort of
my, my biggest years from that perspective

and traffic and all that stuff.

And I see you nodding.

So those were kind of the heyday.

Ricky: It really was, especially
kind of in that niche site world

of, you know, pick a topic, make
a website, create some content.

Affiliate marketing was solid.

Amazon was paying, you know, if you were
selling enough, they were paying like 8%.

Um, I mean, things were good,
really good at the time.

Okay,

Doug: so on that note, over time,
I got a little bored like building

new sites and it wasn't as fun
as it was in the early days.

Part of it is just at the beginning,
maybe our goals were very humble,

maybe a few hundred dollars per month.

But then when you reach, you know.

Five figures, multi
five figures per month.

It's not as fun to start a new site
that said I slowly over, you know, the

last several years I was exiting my
positions in sites and spending time

doing other stuff, which I've talked about
elsewhere quite a bit, um, that led to.

Me starting sites just so I could stay up
to date with what was going on have course

material have stories to tell What about
you were you slowly and share whatever

you want to or don't want to Ricky?

But I want to ask like do
you currently have sites?

Were you slowly exiting?

Did you sell some did you
buy some tell that story?

Ricky: Yeah, we did a bunch of stuff.

I mean, in, um, early 2020, we
had, by that point we'd built

several sites and we'd bought and
sold some over time in early 2020.

We took our whole portfolio of
blogs and some of this comes from,

um, I've mentioned, you know,
Jim, my partner at the time, he,

uh, he likes to go big on things.

And so, and we're, you know, we're on
YouTube and, you know, so it's like, yeah.

Let's do something big.

So we wanted to sell some of our sites
and he's like, let's sell everything

and let's start over on blogs.

Um, and just create all new stuff.

And we had built some really big ones
cause we had, um, we'd hired a bunch of

college students to just write for us.

And so we had blogs with just hundreds
and hundreds of blog posts on them.

Um, they'd gotten pretty big, but we,
we had them writing, but we weren't

really following up that much on.

optimizing much about them,
uh, monetizing them well.

So those ones were pretty
undervalued I felt like at the

time, but um, it was still nice.

We got a nice paycheck from it
and we exited everything at once.

And then the plan was to
immediately start new stuff.

But at the time we had just hired or we
were about to hire a couple of new people.

Um, and we decided that it was, we
really wanted to, focus a little bit

more prioritized, really dialing in
and learning YouTube and video content.

And so we spent a lot of time with
our new employees and just our

whole team, um, kind of dialing in
what we were doing with YouTube.

We actually created a few YouTube
channels on different topics to

just practice and hone the skills.

And, uh, so it was like eight months
before we started another blog.

Um, but we did and we finally did.

And we, We didn't really
totally follow our own process.

We hypothesized a few things that started
out working fine, but then, um, the

early, the earliest days of sort of the
helpful content stuff in, um, What was

that around 2022 when it first started
trickling in the helpful content didn't

like, and when I say what are what we
experimented with, one of the main things

was with with these kind of niche or niche
websites that we had done in the past,

one of the big keys was just to find low
competition, kind of long tail keywords.

And you can rank number
one for that stuff.

And, you know, maybe, uh, you can build
a little bit of authority by ranking

for those and, and try some things with
a little more competition, but we're

going to focus mostly on low competition.

We're going to get that traffic.

Well, uh, we went just all in on, we're
going to find a whole bunch of search

queries that there's no competition
for, and we're just going to write

all of those, but there was no topical
authority being built at all because.

We were just shallowly covering a
whole bunch of long tail keywords.

And, uh, so the traffic like cookforfolks.

com is one of our websites.

It's, it's a, literally it's
a cooking website just about

cooking for big groups of people.

It's not really a traditional cooking
site cause it's not full of recipes

and stuff which are very competitive.

It's just answering simple
questions people have.

Like a lot of the articles are how many
bags of chips do I need for 50 people and.

You know, we cover kind of all different
sizes and we talk about the different

kinds of chips, you know, if you're
talking tortilla chips, if you're

talking potato chips for a barbecue,
it's gonna be a little different.

Right.

Um, and it was, it was just a whole bunch
of that, but kind of scattered across all

food types and all, all sorts of stuff.

And so, uh, like may 2022, uh, we,
the traffic had been going up and up

and up and it stopped and it dropped.

Yeah.

And it just kind of stagnated
from there ever since.

And it's been slowly creeping
up cause we've been doing

a little bit of work to it.

But you know, that was the, the hypothesis
was, let's just, it should work.

Let's just try to rank for all these
low competition, long tail keywords.

But, and it worked for a little bit,
but Google didn't like that anymore.

So, uh, right now we have a few blogs.

I started one a year ago, a new one
that, uh, I still haven't publicly

announced what it is because I'm trying
to build it very organically, but I'm,

I was trying to do it kind of quickly.

And then last year, um, through a
few, through a few punches at me.

So I didn't get as far as I wanted to
get, but I've got that one I'm working on.

So we have a few right now that
are, um, kind of at various stages.

Cook for folks has been around a
while, but we haven't put a lot

of emphasis on it in a while.

And that's one of my
projects for this year is.

A complete revamp of that site too.

So yeah, lots going on.

Still doing it.

Um, for sure.

And I

Doug: love, um, I love
that you're still doing it.

Cause I, I haven't started a new site in
a few years and I look at, uh, you know,

Spencer Hawes over at niche pursuits and.

Guy loves building new sites.

Like he, every few years
he does another thing.

He's staying current.

I was lucky enough to meet him
at FinCon a few months ago.

And yeah, he's, uh, he's into niche sites.

I was like, don't you get
bored with this stuff ever?

And he's like, nah, I
just, I really dig it.

And that's cool.

I just, at some point I was like, okay,
I'm not seeing the returns like I was in

the past and I have other interests and.

I'm, I'm spread thin in a different way.

Right.

Yep.

All that to say, it is a cool industry
overall, but it has been shifting.

And I know, I mean, you did call yourself
out a little bit and say, ah, you know, we

didn't actually even follow our process.

Like you were, I mean, you were
testing something, but with the

With the test probably could have
performed fine, like a few years

ago, like we have done that, right?

The keyword golden ratio.

Ricky: But then it just like hits a Google
update that started to shift things.

And the progress, like the trajectory
was exactly what we'd seen before.

It was fine.

Not anymore.

Okay.

Doug: So let's, let's shift into
some of the updates and what you've

seen, you know, you described that,
that one specific project, but

you have students, you have other
people, there's folks in our network.

We just hear chatter within our
mastermind groups or whatever.

So these last few updates say, let's
just focus on 2023 where there were

a couple and then helpful content.

Update really slammed a lot of people.

A lot of big sites have some friends
that were making like, say, 20

to 40, 000 per month, and it's
down to like 1000 bucks a month.

I mean, it's devastating.

Absolutely devastating.

So what have you seen?

What's the word on the street on your end?

Ricky: Yeah, it's um, it's been
really tricky because with a lot

of big updates, we're able to kind
of pinpoint a few things with 2023.

Um, different industries, different, like
it's kind of behaving differently for

different people, which is really weird.

Things that are working really
well for some people didn't

work at all for other people.

So what I feel like it, or you know,
like the chat or what we're hearing and

from seeing so many different responses,
depending on the types of websites

and the niche and the industry, um, It
seems to me like what Google's trying

to do is help steer people toward the
content they, that should Answer their

query based upon what their intent was.

Right.

And I think that's kind of been
their goal all along, but they're

getting a little better at it.

But I also think that in order to sort of
combat the proliferation of content that

we saw with AI, um, and a mass amount
of, I mean, don't get me wrong, AI can

generate some pretty good content and it
can be used as a really great tool, but.

We saw a lot of content get
produced at scale that we've never

seen before that was not vetted.

It's just like, let's get
the AI to write the content.

Let's check all the, the SEO boxes, right?

All the on page SEO stuff.

Let's just make sure that it can
rank well, whether or not it's

accurate or helpful to people.

And so I, it does seem to me.

That Google sort of in an effort
to try to combat that they may

have overshadowed a little bit.

I mean, at this point we're seeing
how much tons of SERPs like search

results that are showing, you know,
Reddit and Quora, like forum type

content, user generated content.

Um, because.

It seems like what the user wants the
user search intent is they want to

get other people's opinions they and
they want, you know, human advice and

they want human answers to questions.

They're not just searching
fact based stuff.

They're looking for, you know,
guidance on certain things

for a lot of search queries.

And for that, I think
Google's having a hard time.

Sorting through all the content
and figuring out what to trust.

So things that, things that I've seen
that are working for some people,

one is establishing better EAT.

Um, basically trying to send the
signals to show to Google that like.

There's a legitimate person or
business behind this, whether or

not that person physically wrote
every word, Google doesn't care.

But if there's a legitimate person
behind it with a reputation that's

decent, it's going to do better than, you
know, a lot of niche sites in the past,

we've been able to be very anonymous.

I don't think that means you can't use a
persona, but the persona needs to have the

signals that it's legitimate, you know?

Uh, and, and that could mean like
literally creating social profiles in a

LinkedIn and stuff for, a fake person.

Um, but yeah, so EAT has been
a big one and topical authority

has been another big one.

Like diving in deeper on, on
the topics that you cover.

And that's one of the big problems with
that I was mentioning with cook for folks.

It's just by never diving in deep
on anything, it's like, great,

you're an expert at what knowing
how much food to buy, you know,

where's, what's the authority.

And the reality is, is like, I come from
big families and like, I've spent my whole

life where when we prepare a meal for You
know, a family get together like literally

once a month I have a Sunday dinner over
at my parents house and all of my brothers

and sisters that I grew up with, they all
live local and we all bring our families

together and it is like, you know, a lot
of people when they're like preparing

to a meal for a wedding, you know, and
it's a big deal and they have to like

work really hard to figure it all out.

Like that's Sunday
dinner for us, you know?

Um, and so like I have expertise
in that, but it's not, it's

not showing on the website.

Right.

Um, I haven't done anything to make
it show on the website cause we

just wrote surface level content
and I didn't even write it.

So, um, those are the main things
is like topical authority EAT.

Um, there's some other things.

I mean, some people are like saying
that, yeah, having a nice custom

homepage makes your website look more
legitimate, but I've seen a lot of

websites that are still just kind of a
blog role that are doing really well.

But it's, I think it's because.

For those search queries that they're
doing really well with, like a blog

is exactly what they're looking for.

They're looking for a human being
who has some experience to give them

an opinion backed up with some, you
know, their own experience and stuff.

People aren't always looking for
a big corporation or, you know,

the big authority on the subject.

A lot of times people are looking for.

from someone who knows
what they're talking about.

Again, it's, that's where I say it's
nuanced depending on what the query is.

And I think, I think Google's just
either getting better or they think

they're getting better at understanding
what the intent of the searcher is and

trying to line them up with a resource
that better fits the other thing that I

think is already starting to take away.

Traffic is just like we saw when snippets
started coming out and those rich

snippets, they got better and better.

Well, Google's just getting better
and better at generating a response.

The search generative experience that
we're seeing, um, you know, for a lot of

the queries that we used to be able to
get people to click to an article for.

Like they just don't need an article.

They need a paragraph and Google's
just going to give that to them.

So the sites that are succeeding
are ones that have focused a lot

of their efforts on helping people
kind of dive to the next level deep.

They're answering questions that can't
be answered with a quick soundbite.

Doug: So a couple, a couple
directions I want to go with

this one and is devil's advocate.

I'm not debating with you.

Absolutely.

All right.

So

Ricky: I love it.

Cause the discussion is super helpful.

Mike.

I share what I'm seeing, but I'm
certainly not seeing everything.

That's for sure.

Perfect.

Doug: Okay.

Um, two observations.

Uh, hopefully I won't forget,
uh, both of them here.

So one, this is a two
part question for you.

So traditionally income school and
your approach was like not towards link

building, no intentional link building.

Is that accurate?

Uh,

Ricky: Leslie?

Yes.

Okay.

Okay.

Yes, I, I'd be happy to clarify a
little bit of the direction we've

gone, but, um, go ahead if you want to.

Okay.

So I, we don't like the term
link building because, and to

me it does make a difference.

It's not just semantics.

It's not really just about the link.

It's more about what it does for
you from an authority standpoint and

from a, um, industry participation.

So we do in our, what we teach, like
when we're helping people build EAT.

You know, we talked to them about lots
of different ways to participate in

their industry, including like this,
like go be on someone's podcast.

You know, you get a link out of it.

Sure.

But you also get.

You know, recognition in the industry.

You get exposed to another
audience of people you get.

Um, you know, if somebody interviewed
you on a podcast that speaks

reasonably to your authority.

Um, I mean, lots of podcasts
interview people that maybe aren't

super authoritative, but like, you
know, it's a vote of confidence.

And I think it's a little bit more of
a vote of confidence than just a link.

Right.

And I think Google can recognize that.

So there are a lot of activities that
we do and that we teach people to do.

Right.

Right.

That most people in the industry
would call link building, but we never

thought of them as link building and
we didn't learn them as link building.

They're things that we are like, these
are good things to do, go do them.

Um, and then as I started, as you know,
I'm watching other people's videos

about the best ways to build links.

And I'm like, we do all that stuff.

It's just, we don't think
of it as link building.

Cause my goal isn't the link.

My goal is to make sure that I do a
great job on someone's podcast and make

it really valuable so that people will
view me as an authoritative resource.

And so I, at this point to most people
that feels like just semantics, when

we started, there was probably more of
a discrepancy between a lot of people

were doing and what we recommend.

Now, I think we've come together
a lot in the industry, but.

I still don't like the name and
maybe it's just semantics, but

to me it makes a difference, um,
because it changes my mindset.

Doug: It does.

It changes the framing.

And I understand exactly
what you're saying.

I mean, in 2013, 2015 people were
building private blog networks and all

this other weird stuff, which never went
away completely, but it's just like a

different strategy and all that kind.

Okay.

So that said, um, typically,
um, There, there's a couple

interesting things, right?

So I'll see videos or hear blog posts
or right after an update, some SEOs

will create content and say, here are
the things you need to do to recover

from this update, which of course
they don't know what they're talking

about because there's not enough
time to have tested and elapsed.

So they're just regurgitating like.

All the things that Google
tells us to do, which is just,

it's not that it's bad advice.

It's just like, it's not going to fix
your problem that you're dealing with.

Some people that I've interviewed
have a very strong belief that

links are really what matters for.

E E A T for really having kind of a
buffer from these updates and we can

reframe it and say, do you have really
good authority in the niche because

you are on a ton of podcasts, you spoke
at conferences, there are references

like all over do follow no follow
people are referencing your material

and not even linking back to you, but.

Like, is that out there?

So from your observations, have you seen
any correlation with like links and or

authority and a site not being suppressed?

Because the thing is, right, like we're
coming at this logically and as engineers

and hopefully some scientific method.

And I'm like, if you could find like
eight different things that completely

contradict each other, like We have
no idea what we're talking about.

So if, if we could find so many examples
of a site with a homepage or with no

about page and it's ranking, well,
it's probably not like, it's probably

not exactly as simple as people think.

So links, what do you think?

Ricky: Yeah, absolutely.

So when it comes to, you know, did link
do links, is that one of the big things?

I think it's more than just the links.

I think you hit on some
really good things.

Um, even the no link mentions,
I think Google is doing a

better job of seeing those.

Um, but also I think because of the way
that it impacts user behavior when within

whatever industry your website's in,
right within that industry, if you have

become a name that people or at least a
good number of people start to recognize.

So you have a brand.

That is, even if it's a personal
brand, even if it's your name is

your brand, but you have a brand
that is viewed as a good resource.

It, you know, if that's happening
with people that also seems to be

happening with Google and there are,
I think probably hundreds of signals.

Like you said, um, all the
different kinds of links, having

no follow links, you know, is
still better than not having links.

Right.

And having some good do follow links.

Uh, especially from highly relevant
and other authoritative sources,

you know, you're listed as a speaker
for, for a conference that fits your

industry, um, or several times, right?

You've spoken at lots of conferences.

And so, um, and you've been mentioned,
you've been interviewed for, uh,

news articles you've, but from
reputable sources, like all of those

things are votes in your favor.

And a lot of those do include a link.

And so I don't disagree that like.

Links probably are one of the biggest
indicators or drivers of which sites

got hurt the most and which ones didn't.

Um, the, I mean the other stuff, right?

The having an about page and having,
I think all those things are, are

good and they're additional signals.

And so, you know, you're
going to find correlation.

You're going to find like, Oh
yeah, these sites that didn't

get hit, they had an about page.

It's like, okay, yeah, but some
other sites did well and they

don't have an about page, but maybe
they have a good online presence.

Yeah.

And maybe for their industry, it's
good enough, even without the about

page and even with fewer links.

And that's the other tricky thing is
it's like, if we're going to do pretty

scientific study here, we, we have to
acknowledge that like for different

industries and even different search
intent and queries within an industry, the

ideal resource, um, isn't always the same.

It's not all like, there are
lots of things you could ask a

question for where it's like.

It doesn't actually matter if
that person speaks at conferences

and it's viewed as an authority.

It just matters to me that like, you
know, they're going to make, they're

going to give me, um, you know,
a recommendation for hiking gear.

It matters to me that
they hike a lot, you know?

And so, uh, that's where I think
some of the studies break down

is we try to oversimplify it.

And we try to say, well, look,
you know, 90 percent of the

sites we looked at that didn't.

Lose traffic, have an about page.

So let's have an about page or,
but, but you find the anomalies.

You're like, well, this one didn't.

And it doesn't have that many
backlinks, but let's look at where

it fits compared to its competitors
for the space where it sits.

Yeah, actually they do have more
authority than those other websites.

So that's my long winded answer.

The saying, basically, I don't, I
don't disagree that links and the other

things that those links are signals of.

The actual industry, you know,
participation and, um, expertise within

that industry and if, and recognized
authority within that industry, all

those things kind of put together,
uh, that brand, that reputation

that you have ends up, I think
being one of the biggest indicators

of who succeeds and who doesn't.

And it doesn't, doesn't mean that you
have to be web MD or, you know, Some

huge website with tons of content
that's been around for 30 years.

It just I think it means Setting up
the right signals which includes links

Doug: It's a great great
framing great answer it's it's

very complex as we all know

That concludes part one with a Ricky.

So if you want to find out the rest.

And how the story ends.

Be sure to check out part two.

I appreciate you checking
out this new podcast.

If you're listening to this in the
future, you'll know it was a very

successful podcast and you're just
going back through the archive.

But if you're listening to
this and I don't know, 20, 24.

It'll help a whole lot.

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definitely appreciate it.

So thanks a lot for the support.

And I'll catch you in part two with
Ricky Kessler of income school.