Ranking Revolution

Welcome to the ranking revolution
podcast, your go-to source for strategies

and ideas for SEO, organic growth,
content creation and online business.

I'm your host, Doug Covington.

In this episode, I chat
with my friend, Sean Markey.

I've actually known Shawn for a few years.

And I think I interviewed him for
the first time a few years ago, but

we kind of ran in the same circles
and I'm subscribed to his email list.

So I kind of keep up
with them a little bit.

And we talk about two main
topics in this interview.

In the first part, Sean and I talk about.

His offer of a fractional SEO
director and how that's been going

and shifting and adapting over time.

And then in the second part, we
talk about his email newsletter.

I love email newsletters.

I've had one since I
started working online.

And with the recent Google updates,
some people have shifted and email

newsletters are even more popular.

And people were trying to get more
involved in email newsletters.

There's.

Many ways to monetize them.

And we get into all those details.

In part two, like many of the interviews
I've divided this into two separate

parts with two different topics.

I hope you enjoy the conversation so
much that you do check out part two

and let's get to the interview with
Sean Markey from rank logic right now.

Doug: Today we're joined by Sean
Markey, a seasoned SEO expert with

a track record of turning affiliate
sites into six figure successes.

He started his journey in 2008 and
he's navigated some ups and downs

of the SEO world, like we all have.

It's a rollercoaster out there.

And Sean brings a wealth of knowledge and
a unique perspective on digital marketing

beyond his professional achievements.

You're dedicated to sharing
insights through his newsletter

and an upcoming age domain course.

Is that still coming out?

Or.

Sean: Still working on that.

Cool.

All right.

Doug: And you're driven by a desire
to get back to the community and

we'll link up so people could read
your about page and stuff like that.

So Sean, it's been a
while since we caught up.

How's it, how's it been going?

Good,

Sean: uh, probably the biggest
change since then is I moved from

southeastern Utah to northern Vermont.

So quite a big move.

Doug: Very cool.

It's, it's beautiful out there.

It's, uh, it could be, be a little
chilly in the winter, right?

Sean: It's a little cold, a little snowy.

Yeah, but it's worth it
for the rest of the year.

Doug: Very cool.

Awesome.

Well, there's a couple of topics
we're going to get into today.

And one of them is about, I guess it's
an offer and part of the work that you

do as a fractional director of SEO.

So we'll talk about that a little bit.

And then the second part
of the conversation is your

email newsletter rank theory.

And I guess it's, it's a full brain.

So I'm on the newsletter and I have been
for years and it's quite entertaining.

And I love email newsletters, just.

In general, and they have a resurgence,
especially with recent Google updates.

A lot of people are thinking,
how can I insulate myself?

Which, you know, we've
been doing that for years.

And from the very beginning,
I had an email newsletter.

Just, I thought it would be a good idea.

And it turns out it's, it's a
really good idea to insulate

yourself from algorithm updates.

So those are the two main areas.

Now, I want to get a little bit more
about your background just so people know,

but yeah, sort of your elevator pitch.

What's your story in like 90 seconds?

Sean: Yep.

Uh, started doing SEO around 2011 back
when, uh, looking back, it was easy.

And, uh, I've worked for a
couple different agencies.

I worked for, uh, Smash
Digital for a while.

Uh, Travis Jameson's agency helped
run things there, learned a lot.

Um, I worked for Siege
Media for two weeks.

Not a good fit.

And then actually left Siege Media
because I had a CBD oil affiliate

site that started to rank in the top
three and that was like making my,

you know, salary almost in a month,
uh, just from the affiliate income.

So, uh, ever since then, around 2019,
I've just been doing my own thing.

I've built and sold several, uh,
affiliate websites in the cannabis space.

Built off of age domains.

And these days I'm doing agency
work and writing my newsletter.

Very

Doug: cool.

Okay.

So with the, the agency side of it,
is that where the fractional director

of SEO sort of comes into play?

Sean: Yeah, that's one thing
that I just sort of launched

on my newsletter in like a.

Desperate bid to get some money coming in.

I'm not super employable.

I think a lot of entrepreneurs
feel the same way.

And, uh, I had tried to get a job,
but just, there wasn't a lot of

good fits for me specifically.

Uh, and so I was like, you know what, I'm
just going to launch this 1, 000 a month.

Join my Slack group, ask
me anything you need.

Uh, any questions you
have, we'll advise you.

We'll kind of give you
the high level stuff.

And at the time, like nine people
pulled the trigger on that.

So it was instantly a
success, which was cool.

Um, and it's kind of evolved from

Doug: there.

Very cool.

And let's talk about the
agency work a little bit.

Like what does the team look like
and what are the sort of offerings?

Because it's interesting.

A lot of.

People are out there either running solo
or a pretty small shop, and they may find

themselves in the same situation where
maybe the pipeline wasn't full or some

clients dropped off for external reasons.

And then you're like, Oh, I
need to pull in some revenue.

So talk about the agency and
kind of the way it's set up.

So

Sean: it's.

I guess pretty non traditional.

Um, I don't want to run
like a 50 person agency.

I don't want to sell it someday
and, you know, cash out.

So it's just me and my business
partner, Matt, who run things.

I'm, I'm much better on the like writing
content optimization side of things.

And he's really great at.

The technical SEO, which I'm terrible at.

So between us, we kind of, you
know, I think cover the spread.

And so we, we work with the fractional
SEO clients that are still with us.

And we could talk about, you know, some
of the reasons why it wasn't the best

offer in the world, but we've kind of
moved, I guess, upmarket a little bit.

And, and now we really focus
on like very high end strategy.

Audits, you know, doing hands on work
for like very established brands.

Okay,

Doug: perfect.

And I'll connect a couple of
dots and maybe you said it.

So you were like, all right, we'll
try the fractional director thing.

And it wasn't exactly
what you needed it to be.

So now it has morphed into something.

I guess you learned from the offer, right.

And you learned about interacting
with those initial clients.

Is that all correct?

Sean: Yeah.

And I mean, at the end of the day.

It's really hard to hold boundaries.

Like just ask us what you need.

We'll advise you, you know, if we see
some stuff, we'll try and be proactive,

but like, I can't look at a site that
needs like this big audit and be like,

you should really do something about that.

It's hard to just not be like,
all right, all right, all right.

Here's how you fix it.

So it was really hard to hold
those boundaries for ourselves.

And so we're delivering like 6, 000
a month and up work for the price

tag of a thousand dollars, like.

It just like, it's just hard to, to
pull back enough to be like, here's the

little bit of info we're giving you.

We still have some clients
for which that's perfect.

Like that's exactly what they need.

They're founders.

They do all the work themselves.

They just need some direction.

And so for that, it's really great.

But, um, we found that like these
big e commerce people that were

working with us need so much more,
like the scope was so much bigger.

So we kind of just moved in
that direction naturally.

Doug: Got it.

That's exactly where my brain was going.

So my previous job was a project manager
and like big software implementations.

So this sounds like it'd be.

super important to be
specific on the scope.

And if you're not, then scope creep,
I mean, it's just a misunderstanding

of expectations on both ends.

And then all of a sudden, you know,
someone thought you were going to put

in 60 hours a week, like a director
of SEO, but really it's a fractional

director and maybe it's only 20 hours.

And how do you prioritize that?

So did you have those like
sort of conversations?

Initially, or it was a
little, it was just like gray.

Everything was a gray area.

Sean: Yeah.

I mean, at first it was just
like, this is what it is.

Sign up if you're interested and.

You know, that's how I went forward.

I did a lot of the work myself at first.

I over promised, maybe over delivered
on the calls we were having.

So I was having like, you know,
five or six hour long calls

a week, digging into sites.

It was just, it was exhausting.

Like five or six doesn't sound
like a lot, but like, it just

takes up the best part of your
brain for the best part of the day.

And so it, yeah, it wasn't.

It was definitely a learning experience
and we kind of dialed that in over

time and we still offer it to some
people and it's perfect for them.

But you know, we, we did have a couple
of clients that were like, Hey, we,

we, we want to make this bigger.

We want more from you.

How do we do that?

And so that's when we started
to just kind of naturally go.

But I mean, as far as like,
Hey, I need some money.

What do I do?

Like, it was a great time.

It was a great thing that really
worked out well and kind of

kicked off the agency play.

So

Doug: currently you and your
partner, Matt kind of split tasks.

It sounds like it's a good match
where your strengths and weaknesses,

um, they match up just perfectly.

So there's not too much overlap.

Talk about the offer that you have now.

So after you know, working through
it and understanding what the The

bigger companies need, what does
it look like if you could, you

know, the high level bullet points.

Sean: We, like the first thing we try
and push is a 5, 000 audit because even

companies that are like, we've worked with
SEOs, we, you know, have an idea of what

things look like, and then we get in there
and it's like, Oh no, you don't like, like

there's a lot of, so, and, and really like
it, it's also just paying for our time.

Like, it's not just like, Oh, these
pages, you know, this is a soft 404

or like, you need to interlink here.

But it's like, Oh, this
is how your business work.

This is, these are the
pages that make money.

This is how the funnel looks like just
really understanding all that I think

is something that can get overlooked by
people like, Oh, we just ranked these

keywords, look at all the traffic that's
coming in, but like it's making 0.

So, uh, do doing that audit first really
helps us to understand the lay of the land

and fix any issues that need to be fixed.

And then from there, you know,
we have offers like, uh, monthly

ongoing work, or like we try and you
try and build things into sprints.

So like each month you get two sprints
and it's this much, and you know,

this is the scope of everything.

So it's very, the, the
guardrails are very well defined.

Doug: The monthly sprints, it sounds
like they're sort of customized and

the ad hawk, and you kind of have
an idea for, you know, if you were

going to do internal linking, right?

In an internal linking audit, then maybe
you have a whatever price per page or

something like that or a price per cluster
is it kind of broken out and internally

you guys know how much work something is?

Sean: Yeah.

And you know, it, it, every
business is different, but if it's

like, Oh, you know, we need to
revamp these, uh, category pages.

So that's going to take this certain
amount of time that represents,

you know, two weeks of work.

That's sprint.

Number one, we'll, we'll do this very
defined project within these two weeks.

And then the next two weeks, you
know, we'll be working on this and

then we'll have a meeting and see
what the next quarter looks like.

So it's all kind of planned out like that.

Got it.

Doug: What size of business
are you working with?

So a 5k audit, right?

Conceivably the company's making a
lot of money to be able to afford

that amount is just like, you know,
kind of a drop in the bucket, really.

Sean: Yeah.

Uh, it's mostly like SaaS and e com
stores that we're really working with.

Like, you know, affiliates really
don't have 5, 000 to spend on a,

an audit unless you're at the wire
cutter or something, but they haven't,

they haven't kept calling yet.

Uh, so yeah, just, just focusing on
like very established e commerce and

SaaS brands, kind of our sweet spot.

Doug: And that makes total sense.

So they're, they're making a lot of money.

They've been successful for a little
while, but they realize like, Hey,

things have gotten out of hand.

We need some experts to come in
here because it's kind of a mess.

And maybe even if they have
internal SEO folks, maybe

they're too close to it as well.

So sometimes do you need to
work with internal SEO people?

Sean: Actually.

That, I mean, this is pretty new,
so that hasn't been the case yet.

Typically a site is just killing it
because they are producing a lot of great

content or their products are great.

And they've been around for 10 years.

Like they have a lot of stuff working
in their favor, but there's a ton of low

hanging fruit because they just have like.

Some people they hire that are good
writers and that's how they've built their

SEO so far and they get links naturally.

And so, you know, they, they're trying
to figure out what to do and it's like,

well, we could hire a whole SEO team
and train them and blah, blah, blah.

But like, you know, maybe
we can work with these guys.

They know what they're doing.

They'll come in, they'll be super focused.

Yeah, so, so typically an
established business that doesn't

yet have an SEO team seems to be
where we find ourselves working.

Doug: Have you looked at or.

Worked with any startups.

So when you mentioned SAS, I was like,
it sounds like maybe a lot of those

folks that you're working with, or maybe
bootstrapped, but have you started working

or looked at that market where they
may have a lot of funding and a lot of

money burning a hole in their pockets?

Sean: Not yet.

I mean, that's, it sounds like a great
market, but, um, I think you also have

to really be able to, you know, flex,
uh, and, and show a lot of like case

studies and similar, you know, uh,
experience to people who have a huge

checkbook and are just getting started.

And I think typically like a lot of the
investors, this is just my assumption,

may have people they've worked with
in the past and have people they want

to like push the startup to work with.

You know, that they trust already.

So I haven't really explored that yet.

It might be, uh, might be a good
idea to start getting in with

some investors to be that person.

But yeah, it's mostly like established
brands that have just grown over time.

Doug: I was chatting
with someone recently.

And they just have a YouTube channel
where they were sharing, you know, really

similar stuff that you share in your
newsletter, actually, and maybe some

more case studies and stuff like that.

But they said that they were
finding a handful of startups.

I guess companies with funding and they
were like, Hey, you know, we're looking

at thousands of dollars per month.

We need some SEO help.

So yeah, definitely worth it to look at.

I mean, I, I haven't done
it, so I have no idea.

Um, but yeah, money has dried up a
little bit more in the last couple

of years, but it's always cyclical.

So there could be another time
before too long where for sure.

People are trying to
just throw money at you.

Good problem to have.

Yeah.

All right.

So when, so it's you and Matt, do you
ever find yourself where you're like,

okay, we need to bring on, um, like a, a
junior consultant to come on and do these

recategorizations or anything like that?

Sean: We've got, uh, like one
or two freelance people we

work with, but typically the
bulk of the work is done by us.

Um, so, you know, that's a
problem we're, we'll definitely

have to address eventually.

Uh, we're not, we're not large enough for
that to be something we had to, to do yet,

but it's definitely, it's definitely on
the horizon and having those couple of

contractors helps to be like, Hey, could
you do this particular research or, you

know, do this, just throw stuff their way.

Doug: And I'm curious about just
working with clients in general.

So I tried some agency stuff when I first
got laid off and it was quite profitable.

It's a great way to bring in money,
but I just, I didn't have the, the

right attitude to work with clients.

I'll put, I'll put it that way.

And I was like, okay, this is not for me.

So do you have any struggles
with, um, client work?

Sean: I mean, I'm particularly.

I'll say it's been nice getting clients
through the newsletter because they

already know who I am and they know that
I'm, you know, kind of grumpy and ranty

and, uh, have really strong opinions
about things and curse all the time.

So that's been nice.

Uh, it's, it's definitely been harder
to court some of these like, Real

bigger brands that expect like the
whole sales process and like, walk

us through your sales deck and,
you know, show us, like, tell us

about your KPIs and all this stuff.

Cause I'm like, I don't have that.

So I've been making those,
uh, it's definitely worth it.

Uh, but it's, I'm not, that's just not me.

And so, um, as soon as it makes
sense to hire like a salesperson,

I am definitely going to be doing
that because I struggle with it.

Doug: It's a, and I mean, that's a tough
question because I'm, I'm like, Hey, do

you not like working with clients while
there's potential clients watching?

But the, I mean, that's the reality.

Like there are good clients and
there are difficult clients.

And if people know you and they, they
know your personality and your ex, their

expectations line up with what you're
delivering, then obviously everybody

wins, but it's when you have a mismatch.

So.

Have you had this situation, not
necessarily in this iteration of agency

work, but with other client work where
you needed to break up with the client?

If so, how did that go?

Sean: Um, I haven't, I don't
think I've done that recently.

I've done it for sure in the past.

Just like, Hey, we're not a good match.

Like we're not the people
you're looking for.

You need to find someone else.

I can, I can connect you with some people
I think might be, you know, More up

your alley, but, uh, it's not, we can't
deliver what you need us to deliver.

Um, it's, it's not a great conversation
to have, but it's definitely nice.

To be confident enough to have that
be like this is uh, you know, even if

like like that's that's the best case
scenario It's like hey, okay We're you

know, you're asking for a lot of this and
that's not our thing and blah blah blah

but if it's just like oh man, this guy
sucks like I'm getting rid of him like

he can have his three thousand dollars I
don't want to work for that kind of money,

uh, for, for this kind of situation.

It can be very satisfying.

Um, it's been there in the
past, but everything this

time around has been great.

Doug: Yeah.

And I think, I mean, they probably
have the same feeling too.

And I've had again, the short
stretch where I did some client work.

I kind of knew it was not a good fit
at the beginning, but I needed to earn

some money and later on a learn to
trust the gut and just, you know, if

I had to price myself out of the job,
like that was often a better position.

And then every now and then they accept
it, which, uh, that also creates problems.

Cause then you're like, Oh no, they're
paying me this huge amount of money.

So, okay, well let's
talk a little bit about.

The learning process, cause you, you
reconfigured the offer a little bit.

What tips do you have?

And I'll just make up an
avatar for us to focus on.

Let's say it's a, a person that is
just doing SEO consulting on their

own, and they want to put together.

A better offer.

They might hire someone on the,
uh, a freelancer, just like you

mentioned, occasionally for some
extra help, but they're looking

to put together a bigger package.

What would you put in there and
what advice would you give them as

they're like trying to figure out
the starting point for that offer?

Sean: I mean, I really think the best
way to do things is just to do something,

see how it goes, iterate, you know, like
the best teacher is experience, I think.

Um, but.

Uh, I guess my advice would be kind of
like I mentioned earlier, like, like

look at what actually earns them money.

It's not just an increase
in organic traffic.

It's an increase in a specific
organic traffic that, you know,

turns into customers for this person.

So like, you know, focus on walking them
through the funnel, top of funnel to the

bottom of funnel and, and how your SEO
directly, your efforts directly connect

to the the user's journey from, from
becoming aware to becoming a customer.

I think if you can kind of speak that
language, you'll be speaking a language

they're very interested in, in hearing.

Doug: Do you find that the company
doesn't know What their funnel

looks like and you have to actually
educate them on that part of it.

Sean: I mean that that might be the
case especially if you're working with

like maybe less established businesses,
but if you get like a You know 10

figure a year in e commerce store.

Like they know what products sell,
they know how people find them and they

just need to make that better or more,
you know, just get those numbers up.

So sometimes that can be the case if
you're working with like newer companies,

they may not know all of that, but
for us working with more established

brands, it hasn't been such a problem.

Doug: Would you, or do you have a
preference on whether you work with a

company that knows or does not know?

Cause I think.

They both have value, right?

Like one company that knows where
their funnel is and how it works.

You don't have to educate them
on that, but maybe you're not

bringing as much value, right?

So if you blow someone's mind and
you're like, Hey, look over here,

like this is unutilized and all of
a sudden you can make one change.

So do you have any preference
on working with a more, I guess,

funnel aware brand versus clueless?

Sean: Um, not me personally.

I don't have a preference either way.

Um, you know, they both have their
pros and cons working with somebody

more established, you know, the,
the low hanging fruit isn't so low.

Um, so you may have to work
a little harder, be a little

bit more creative to, to turn.

Your efforts into, you know, a better
bottom line for them, uh, compared

to, you know, you're doing more
educating, it's taking more of your

direct time, but there's a lot of low
hanging fruit, there's a lot of wins,

uh, you can kind of build on that.

It's definitely a good type of company
to start working with at first,

because then you can show that traffic
graph to the other people, it's

like, hey, oh, you want case studies?

It's like, look, we grew traffic.

1200%, uh, in nine months and
increased sales and blah, blah, blah.

So, um, yeah, I guess they
both have their place.

Doug: And last couple of questions before
I'll transition over to talking about your

newsletter, but you sound like, you know,
you're not a natural salesperson, right?

You don't have, uh, some, some
of the pieces of the puzzle and.

You're converting a lot
on your newsletter, right?

Um, so what tips do you have for folks
to maybe present those testimonials

or yeah, what's your approach?

Like if, if you, if you have a lead
that comes in and they, maybe they're

a referral, so they don't really
know you, they don't know your style.

What's like the bare minimum that
you prepare to present in the call?

Sean: Mm hmm.

Um, I guess at the moment, my
first preference is just to get

on a call with them, like an intro
call, see if we're a good fit to

kind of learn about their business.

Um, you know, I'll go through a website
and Ahrefs, something like, look,

look at what keywords are ranking
for, see what keywords are targeting.

Um.

I think one thing that helps, like
I'm not maybe a good salesperson.

I don't like being on, um, I'm a much
better writer than I am a presenter,

but I'm still like a big nerd about SEO.

Like I get excited about things when I
see like, Ooh, like we could do this.

Like, Oh, you could target this.

And you know, if you consider Google
discover, like here's how you can.

So I think.

If you can connect someone with
someone on a call like that and

really just kind of demonstrate your
knowledge and your excitement about

it, that I think that goes a long way.

So like, uh, the next call after that,
it'll be more of like a, you know, I put

together this deck, here's what we do,
here's what it costs, blah, blah, blah.

And it's kind of like, uh,
it's a lot less natural and a

lot less of an exciting thing.

So I think getting that kind of.

On the map in the first
calls has been helpful.

It's like, okay, this guy
knows what he's talking about.

He's a huge nerd.

He like is interested in our product
or he has experience in this space.

Uh, you know, the, the, they can
maybe forgive you on the sales call

if you're just sort of a monologuer
and, you know, kind of, um, if

it's not the best version of that,

Doug: Okay.

Yeah.

And I think, yeah, it could be tough.

I, I guess people have to find their style
and everything, but since a lot of your

clients do come through the newsletter, I
think, I mean, that's, that solves so many

problems like you, you mentioned before.

So, uh, before we transition, is there
anything else, uh, on the agency side

that you want to add or something I missed
that you think is important to talk about?

Sean: Um, the, the last thing I'll say,
just to kind of give an insight, um,

is So like when it comes to actually
doing the client work, Matt does a

bigger percentage of that than I do.

He's just a better SEO than I am more
experienced, smarter, uh, more analytical.

I'm more on the creative side of things.

So a lot of my energy goes into, you
know, making sure the newsletters

produced each week, um, going on
podcasts like this, uh, anything with

a more creative bent to try and like.

Grow the amount of people that know
about us and can get onto the newsletter.

It's like, everything's just
get on the newsletter and then

we'll present offers within it.

Um, so it, it took a while to pull it
off, but like find the thing you're

good at and like go super hard on that
and find other people that can fill

in the gaps that you're not good at.

That's been a huge one for me.

Great advice.

Doug: Yeah.

It's really, it's so difficult to.

try to Become like in quotes world
class at the thing you suck at

like, we're usually better off
like our natural inclination and

Focusing on that which is perfect

That's it for part one with Sean Markey.

If you want to check out part two.

You can just follow the link
in the description or if you're

subscribed, it should be in the feed.

You'll be able to find the
don't even worry about it.

Be sure to check out the link so
you can learn more about Sean.

And in part two, we talk about his email
newsletter and some of the details.

It's a pretty fun newsletter.

I kind of gush about
how I enjoy the writing.

But you could hear that when we get
into it in, before you go, if you

dig these episodes, if you like the
podcast, you could help me out a lot.

By making sure you're
subscribed, leaving a review.

If you're watching on YouTube.

Like comment on the videos, all
of them, you, you can come in

multiple times, just interact with
the videos and it really helps out.

Thanks a lot and we'll catch
you on the next episode.